Vatican, Church, Islam, Bible, Nura, Catholic Mass Source

Submitted by Straight_Talk_Luigi (United States), Jun 29, 2008 at 23:20

Reference for Catholic Sunday service on my previous post: http://catholicism.about.com/od/worship/f/Sunday_Duty.htm

A doctrine that did not develop until over 300 year after his "death", I should say disappearance? The doctrine of the Trinity is hardly orthodox Christianity. That is another discussion.

Say what you will at your own peril, Nura. Unlike you, I have listened to criticism of my religion and theories on what happened to Jesus. I've heard about how He moved to France and married Mary Magdelene, or how He went to India twice or how He never even existed.

The Trinity is Three in One.

Your reference is to the Council of Trent, I take it. Well, many of the traditions and teachings of Christianity had been going on before that in the spirit of Jesus. The Council just got things more organized through Divine Inspiration.

You don't have bias? Bias is a term that is often used to blanket the validity of arguments. We all have bias, but I believe that I am coming from a perspective that few people have

Actually, much of what you say I have heard before, and it probably won't please you to know it's from secularists.

. I have Christians, Jews, and Muslims in my family.

Wonderful! I would encourage you to listen to them. Open up your heart to the paths they follow.

In fact I was raised according to the Old Testament. I said the Pledge of Allegiance in school like many children growing up in this nation.

I have, and I liked it.

I have had the privilege to have lived out of this country for a total of 4 years. I think that this exposure makes me less influenced by bias thinking. I am a realist.

Maybe, but to me you come across as thinking like STS: that Islam is perfect no matter how many people die or kill in it's name or how millions suffer under sharia law.

It's easy to comfort oneself, Nura, with the notion of perfection, and as someone with a psychological degree, you must know exactly what I am speaking about.

Unrest in this country is not unknown. American has always had distrust in their government and you will find Non-Muslim Americans saying much more than I am. Who are the conspiracy theorists in this country?

Americans have always criticized the government, and conspiracy theorists come in all shapes and sizes. Being classified one is hardly a privilege, and more of an insult I would say.

So what is the "American" mentality exactly?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, and I doubt I can answer it or speak for all Americans.

I challenge your assertion that Muslims are converting to Christianity. It sounds like evangelistic rhetoric.

It's just not reported on very much. Al jazeera mentions it, but more so to get Muslims to fear Christians and so they will get mad and hurt them, I would argue. So long as Islam comes into contact with the rest of the world, Muslims will be converting and vice-versa. The scientific laws of logic and math, which many Muslims claim to cherish, say so.

The truth is, there is no way of knowing who is "actually" converting. Especially when the largest amount of Muslim converts are said to be in war-torn impoverished areas . It does not bother me either way.

Well, it's probably true that poor people are more likely to embrace Jesus than rich ones. This was more or less foretold by Him in the Gospel. Jesus also went out and tended the poor and lame, so Christians are just trying to follow in His spirit as best they can most of the time. That is my assertion.

This is the time of "sorting" for believers. The anti-Christ system separates the believers from the non-believers.

Then let's see all Muslim-majority nations allow Christians to preach the Gospel everywhere.

There will be Muslims who will me mislead by the system and the anti-christ himself.

Have you ever considered that Islam is not the true path, Nura?

Missionary accompanied explores, I wonder why they did not oppose the horrific brutalities that these explorers were doing to the native peoples.

Probably for the same reasons numerous moderate Muslims don't speak out about terrorism. They are afraid the brutes will turn on them next, or perhaps they felt that no matter what, they cannot take up arms stop what is happening and they would die too.

In fact, they participated.

Please provide evidence of this.

Missionaries are workers of the coming anti-Christ, that much is apparent. Muslims are interested in quality not quantity. I would rather be in the company of 10 strong believers that 1000 weak ones.

It would be more accurate to say that you are not interested in quantity. The philosophies of orthodox (radical) Islam are clearly designed for the spread of not only of Islam but the Arabic culture. This is why Islam has jihad, dawah, and taquiyya.

Muslims were doing better when they were smaller in numbers. I wouldn't mind that return.

I would say that Muslims need smaller numbers because across the Old World, they are putting too much stress on the environment.

Finding Islam is like finding a mountain of Gold that no one sees although they pass by it everyday. It is not enough for me to enjoy the gold, I want to share it. If only they knew how wonderful it is! I want to share it because it would make me more happier knowing that my loved ones are benefiting from it. I want my family to experience what I am experiencing. If only they could feel what I feel.

Wise Native Americans noted how the lust for gold drove many of the settlers mad.

If only you knew the joys of knowing Jesus. You wouldn't even have to defend Islam anymore. All you would have to do is love Allah with all your being and your neighbor as yourself.

It's really quite simple.

A true Christian would be an outcast in a society of Christians just as a true Muslim is an outcast amongst Muslims.

Now, this is a statement without bias. Well done.

Any religion that has as much Prestige and money as your religion, could not be the right religion.

I take it you're referring to the Vatican, and not Polish or Peruvian peasants. Again, I've heard the same argument from non-religious and Protestants.

The value of what the Vatican has in terms of material things is sometimes misunderstood. I read an article once where it was impossible to estimate the Vatican's wealth due to the fact that it "owned" all the Catholic Church property in the world and all the other rites associated with the Church.

The Vatican does not own every Catholic Church; we just get our spiritual direction from there. It is often forgotten that the Vatican is also a sovereign state, and it does need some type of operating budget. Even Jesus knew that taxes and other fees had to be paid. Come to think of it, the Seventh Commandment makes it almost a necessity if we want good government and leaders.

Indicating Pope Benedict XVI as sole proprietor is also in error. He actually lives in a two-bedroom apartment with few material things.

Mother Theresa was a Catholic. She was revered by many, but there are others who follow in her steps. Our monks and nuns and several priests practice under vows of poverty. I really don't see Muslims or any other religions doing that.

The other concept you talk about is prestige. Jesus said "He who exalts himself shall be humbled, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

The Catholic Church, unlike many mainstream religions, often goes against the grain for modern society or the wants of modern nation-states with the "changing times." The Vatican is quite careful in making sure that the teachings of Jesus are put first and foremost.

To put it simply, those who follow the Church and her mission do not care about being popular or being tolerant or even about social progress at any cost. These individuals, though they be few, take up their cross and follow Jesus, just like James and John, through good times, bad times and ugly times. "He who loses his life for the sake of the Kingdom will find it," Jesus says.

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