CURMALLY: Thank you for your clear admission (confession?) that Islam is NOT a religion of peace, that it desecrates idols Part I. And about pulling legs Part II

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 18, 2010 at 10:02

>>Namste, Plato

Namaste and Salam aleikum.., Curmally. You write to me:

>>Don't be so proud of your ignorance<<

Allah has revealed verses which demand ignorance from Muslims. I freely admit my ignorance on many matters. I am always willing to have a discourse on matters I have some knowledge of with any one including Muslims to improve my understanding of the subject. But Allah tells Muslims to turn away from people who question the Koran and remain ignorant of the true import of Allah's message.

005.101 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing. [Allah is asking believers to stop pestering the prophet with difficult questions i.e. stay ignorant]

005.102 YUSUFALI: Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith. [Stay ignorant or else you will lose faith is allah's message to Muslims]

006.068 YUSUFALI: When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong. [When kaffirs question some of the silly verses in the Koran Allah advises you to run away from them. Allah is worried lest you be convinced of the truth of their reasoning and He is abandoned. And I see that you are planning to obey Allah in this matter as you state that you have nothing more to say to some of your questioners]

>>We pray 5 times a day and the prayers and method are prescribed. We read the Quran e Karim To learn from it.<<

Among the methods prescribed you are allowed to recite any surah/verse of the Koran during your prayers. You could be reciting Surah 111 which is simply Allah threatening a man and his wife and describing what will happen to them in hell. Or you could be reciting verses relating Zainab's divorce and Muhammad's marriage to her. Or maybe even the one where for oppression people have to have their limbs chopped off on opposite ends. Even an ignoramus like me knows that these verses being thrown back at Allah can hardly be called prayers. What pray is the value of reciting back to Allah what He had said in some context or the other?

If you read the Koran in your language how will those like you who depend on translations know whether you are learning the right stuff or not? Maybe you learned all the wrong stuff as you seem to think I did from my translation by Yusufali. How in the world can you ever be sure you have learned the Koran correctly?

>> I am quoting 9:29 and am using Professor Ahmed Ali's Translation.

" Fight those people of the book who do not believe in God and the last day, who do not prohibit what God and his Apostle have forbidden, nor accept divine law, until all of them pay protection tax in submission."

If you do not believe in any of the Divine Revelations like Judaism, Christianity or Islam, or believe in God then you are to be fought.<<

Thank you Curmally for your clean admission that Islam is not a religion of peace as your fellow Muslims keep screaming from the rooftops.

Koran 9:29 is just another way of telling Muslims to fight Christians and Jews who do not accept the Arabian god Allah and His prophet because the verse goes on to add "who do not prohibit what God and his Apostle have forbidden" as clearly the Jews and Christians of the time were firm in not accepting Mohammed as an apostle. I have a Muslim hadith to enlighten you on what this verse is saying. Book 043, Number 7185: Sura Tauba, it is meant to humiliate (the non-believers and the hypocrites). There is constantly revealed in it (the pronoun) minhum (of them) and minhom (of them, i. e. such is the condition of some of them) till they (the Muslims) thought that none would be left unmentioned out of them who would not be blamed (for one fault or the other). I again said: What about Sura Anfal? He said: It pertains to the Battle of Badr. I again asked him about Sura al-Hashr. He said: It was revealed in connection with (the tribe) of Banu Nadir.

Anyway, you seem to have no problem in saying that anyone who does not believe in God (how about gods or goddesses?) should be fought until they submit and agree to pay protection money to Muslims. For Allah and Muslims disbelief in this Arabian god is a terrible provocation. So much for the religion of peace.

Curmally now can you understand why kaffirs are terrified of Muslims?

Your arguments are following a pattern. Muslims start off claiming Islam is a religion of peace. When confronted with clearly violent verses they hide under context, social mores of the time, word meaning, time of revelation and such other fig leaves. Probed further they have no alternative to admitting Koranic verses have a lot of violent content in them, as you have done now with your interpretation of 9:29.

>> Where or how does it degrade you?<<

Taking protection money as a sign of my submission does degrade me, Mr. Curmally. Unless your understanding of degrade is different from mine.

>> If you believe you are brainless as you choose to describe yourself what can I do? The Quran e Karim does not mention euthanasia for brainless people especially in this verse or in the Holy book itself.<<

Did I tell you I was brainless? If I did then truly I am brainless. I believe you are referring to Allah's estimate of people He himself created as brainless in this verse: 002.171 YUSUFALI: The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.

The Goat-herd Allah is saying that unbelievers like me are like goats devoid of wisdom. Allah knows what He has created i.e. more than five billion humans with goat-brains. Why did He not create them as real goats in the first place? Allah knows best!

Personal attacks and calling into question the intelligence of your questioner shows you have lost control of the situation. Meltdown time?

>>Before I go to 9 :111, yes we break idols as is the tradition of the prophet Abraham (may peace be upon him). This is as per what is mentioned in the Quran e Karim.<<

Good you admit to desecrating the holy symbols of other people. Breaking idols worshipped by people of other religions is crass intolerance. It is good to read a Muslim admit in print that the Koran recommends intolerance of other religions, especially idol worshippers. This is encouraging as you are beginning to see what your religion permits.

>> Now let us return to 9:111

"God has verily bought the souls and possessions of the faithful in exchange for a promise of Paradise. They fight in the cause of God, and kill and are killed. This is a promise incumbent upon him, as in the Torah, so the Gospel and the Quran. And who is more true to his promise than God?So rejoice at the bargain you have made with him;for this will be triumph supreme." I see no mention of wholesale warfare on the Jews or Christians. What are you talking about?<<

You are now misleading your readers. This is what I wrote regarding 9:111: "You fight and kick ass to impose your beliefs on others as you did in Egypt, Iran, India, the Maghreb. And we know as long as there are Muslims you will continue to try and impose your religion on unbelievers because you are mandated by Koran 9:29 to do so and you are given an unbreakable promise in Koran 9:111 to kill us unless we believe as you do."

Where did I say that 9:111 recommends wholesale warfare on Jews and Christians? You are putting words into my mouth.

What it does is promise Muslims eternal reward (Allah says the promise is incumbent upon Him i.e He will not renege on it. Normally He is quite stingy with rewards as he follows up each promise of reward with "if He so wishes" or some such words). This promise is what probably drove the sudden and unstoppable sweep of the Arab Muslim armies across the world.

>>The Buddha statues in Bamiyan were destroyed by extremists and their associates we are fighting in my country today. The whole world knows that <<

Why do you call the destroyers of Bamiyan extremists after admitting that Muslims are mandated to break idols in the tradition of the patriarch Abraham? And why are you, a self-declared Muslim nation, fighting them if they are only following in the footsteps of Abraham and Mohammed, those ancient destroyers of idols? Are you willing to charge them with un-Islamic behaviour and if no, you cannot claim they are extremists.

>>The taliban and Al_Qaeda are extremists.<<

No need to emphasise the fact, especially to kaffirs like us, their victims.

>>Don't you have extremists in the USA? Or Australia or the UK or in India? What were Shuddi and Sangathan movements about?<<

We have them too. The difference is the miniscule support they have in society at large. Just Google to find the level of support extremists have in "peaceful!" Muslim lands and you will see they have significant support. Think of the street celebrations after 9/11.

Though I live in India I have never heard of these organizations (Shuddi and Sanghatan). What have they done so far? I have heard of VHP and its supporting gang of thugs who grab the lime light once in a while.

>>Yes Mahmud of Ghazni did destroy the temple at Somnath and the idol there and took more riches than he could have imagined from that temple. Its a part of history and I cannot deny it. As it took place some 800-900 years ago, I can't be held responsible for it.<<

You can't be held responsible for Gazni and Ghori's acts . But unless you denounce their acts of violence and desecration we will have to consider you also capable of and willing to carry out similar acts.

But as a Muslim you really can't denounce Gazhni, because as you have admitted, destroying idols is mandated by no less a prophet than Abraham Taking booty is of course the prerogative of all Muslim invaders as Allah has given you that right in Koran 8:69. Looting the wealth of temples in India follow naturally from this verse.

We know that Muslims have no regrets for what Muslim invaders did to India because we see that you have named your missiles aimed at us as Gaznawi, and also Ghori and Abdali (who sacked Delhi). These invaders were not even from the region of present day Pakistan. Why did Pakistan choose the names of Afghan invaders of India for their missiles unless the motive was to show their love for these invaders and as a warning to India.

One of our missiles is named Prithvi, probably named after the king who fought Ghori twice. Prithvi also means the globe.

>>Can I hold you responsible for the destruction of the Babri Masjid at Ayodhya? Were you there physically? can I hold you responsible for the Gujerat massacres? Did you take part in them?<<

Even if I did not take part in them, since I am of the generation of the Babri and Gujarat incidents, if I condoned rather than condemned them, you can hold me culpable, if not responsible, for them. In your case your holy personages themselves took part in such desecrations and violence (idol destruction, the prophet's LESSER jihads and his decimation of the Banu Quraiza) so it is sunnah for Muslims to destroy the holy artifacts of pagans.

>>You say my ancestors were amongst those who died at Somnath. Hello how am I here if all my predecessors were killed.<<

Unless every man woman and child was killed (which thankfully was not the case) there could have been people among them who were your ancestors. A woman/man can have many children, can't she/he? And ancestor does not necessarily mean somebody in direct line of ascent from you.

Regards

Plato

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