to jan: forget about the pope? is he THAT important

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Sep 28, 2006 at 07:51

what is the topic here jan? its the pope. my comment was mostly about the pope and you dismiss him so quickly. its as if he has no value.

but that's not a problem. you have changed the topic to my favourite one

"The problem with Islam is that its founder Mohamad only got his new religion really started when he used violence to force other people to believe what he believed. And the violence he used was unseen in his time. There is ample encouragement or jusitfication for violence in the Quran:"

lets see what evidence you have got.

2.193 "And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."

hav you ever read the Quran jan? or do u just copy paste verses from hate sites wothout even checking to see if its correct?

now let us see wot the quran says:

[002:190] Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.

[002:191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

[002:192] But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[002:193] And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

(yousaf ali interpretation)

u quoted verse 2:193. did u not see the verses just before it? or did u not read the Quran at all?

8.39 "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do."

did u even READ the verse you just quoted?

008:039] And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

the verses 2:190-193 were revealed before the ones in surah 8. so we have to study them first.

verse 190 of chapter 2 makes it clear that fighting is to be done in self defense. and 8:39 confirms it further:

"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression..."

so wen the oppression stops, we have to stop. if it doesnt, then we have to keep on fighting until we prevail. if muslims prevail, so will ' justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere'

"Try to show me the beauty and tolerance in those ayahs. Maybe I am missing the point."

you are not missing the point, you are missing whole verses. you are turning a blind eye to the parts of Quran which exlplains these verses and therefore deceiving yourself

"Maybe fighting means something else than physical violence? Please educate me"

it does. but what is wrong with fighting in self defense?

"You can argue what tumult and oppression might mean"

i can give you an example wot it means:

Professor K. S. Ramakrishna Rao summarizes some of the tortures the early Muslims faced:

Read the history of the early converts to Islam, and every heart would melt at the sight of the brutal treatment of innocent Muslim men and women. Sumayya, an innocent women, is cruelly torn into pieces with spears, An example is made of " Yassir whose legs are tied to two camels and the beast were are driven in opposite directions", Khabbab bin Arth is made lie down on the bed of burning coal with the brutal legs of their merciless tyrant on his breast so that he may not move and this makes even the fat beneath his skin melt." "Khabban bin Adi is put to death in a cruel manner by mutilation and cutting off his flesh piece-meal." In the midst of his tortures, being asked weather he did not wish Muhammad in his place while he was in his house with his family, the sufferer cried out that he was gladly prepared to sacrifice himself his family and children and why was it that these sons and daughters of Islam not only surrendered to their prophet their allegiance but also made a gift of their hearts and souls to their master ? Is not the intense faith and conviction on part of immediate followers of Muhammad, the noblest testimony to his sincerity and to his utter self-absorption in his appointed task ? (Ramakrishna Rao, Islam and Modern Age) (online source)

"However it seems clear to me that "if there is no faith in Allah altogether and everywhere", a good muslim needs to fight."

a good muslim has to keep on defending till the enemy doesnt stop oppressing him. if the enemy doesnt, then the muslim has to keep on fighting till he prevails or dies. if he prevails, so does belief in Allah and justice.

"You are obviously a bad muslim!"

removing your misconceptions makes me a good muslim.

"Alhamdu lillah!:"

i agree

"Well let's see what the Hadith has to say about this? Will some peaceful meaning come out?"

the hadith are dependent on the Quran

"In the first book of Sahih Muslim, Faith - IMAN, Chapter 9 tells the following:

Chapter 9: COMMAND FOR FIGHTING AGAINST THE PEOPLE SO LONG AS THEY DO NOT PROFESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER

There are 7 hadith with the same message:
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Book 001, Number 0029:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor (Caliph), those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His (other) affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that the (stand of Abu Bakr) was right.

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Book 001, Number 0030:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.

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Book 001, Number 0031:
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that he heard the Messenger of Allah say: I have been commanded to fight against people, till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the messenger (from the Lord) and in all that I have brought. And when they do it, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

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Book 001, Number 0032:
It is narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded that I should fight against people till they declare that there is no god but Allah, and when they profess it that there is no god but Allah, their blood and riches are guaranteed protection on my behalf except where it is justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah, and then he (the Holy Prophet) recited (this verse of the Holy Qur'an):" Thou art not over them a warden" (lxxxviii, 22).

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Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

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Book 001, Number 0034:
It Is narrated on the authority of Abu Malik: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: He who professed that there is no god but Allah and made a denial of everything which the people worship beside Allah, his property and blood became inviolable, an their affairs rest with Allah.

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Book 001, Number 0035:
Abu Malik narrated on the authority of his father that he heard the Apostle (may peace be upon him) say: He who held belief in the unity of Allah, and then narrated what has been stated above.

The Prophet is just confirming my worst expectation of what is written in the Quran. And IMAM MUSLIM classifies this under the chapter IMAN, so I guess that he thought it was important, as important as praying and fasting.

THOSE HADITH ARE OBVIOUSLY A THREAT TO ALL NON-MUSLIMS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH."

first of all, the hadith have to be seen in the lightof the Quran. if the prophet says he has to fight, it is in the circumstances the quran tells us to(self defense) isolated statements from hisory prove nothing. first put them in the proper historical context.

secondly, wheres the source? i dont have enough time to see whether the hadith you quoted exist or not. give me the links please

third, you have already misquoted the Quran. how do i know you arent doing the same with the hadith?

i would like to end with a few verses from the bible:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

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