Re: Deceit from El jadida, Moroccan Men, Lisa, On-line dating farce, intercultural relationship, marriage, feelings, Muslim

Submitted by Straight_Talk_Luigi (United States), Sep 13, 2008 at 17:04

Luigi...you know what is "utterly ridiculous" in your own words..

Really? Explaining to you that real, matrimonial love and trust does NOT happen over the internet is ridiculous?

...wev all have feelings we all are human and Moroccans are no different...

Do you subscribe to the idea that "if it feels good do it?" Because that's why a lot of people are on this board, including myself. It's a ridiculous philosophy that could be downfall of the what is now known as the First World in a matter of decades.

Indeed we do feel, that is one reason why I am on here: To explain to you, and others, Lisa, that your feelings are going to get crushed by a freight train if you go through with this. Good, strong marriages involve using your head as much, if not more, than your heart.

No one has told you that Moroccans don't have feelings on this board. Many Moroccans have expressed their disgust for relationship users like your "fiancé" seems to be. In some cases, they feel ashamed, which they shouldn't because it's no reflection on them. Hardly representative of the whole 33 million+ of them, that's for sure.

But do you ever notice how it's Western liberal women who on here defending these relationships? It's not Moroccans (who are usually critical of them) or Muslims or couples from North Africa?

A couple of reasons why:

a) this type of deceit is unacceptable to many Muslims, Moroccans and people in general.

b) They are worried about the reputation of Islam and their culture. I am big enough to know this does not represent either. Some will use taquiyya to marry a Western to use her womb to spread global jihad, but that's really about it. Consider those are rare cases, I would say it's hardly representative.

c) They are out to be truthful, not to prove how tolerant they are

d) Couples who are in normal, loving relationships simply DON'T CARE about other people's drama! They are TOO BUSY in their own universe with their families. I don't care if they are Moroccan, American, whatever! People who already have what they want don't care about drama!

If your relationship was so fantastic, what is said on here, even the rare insults and generalization, shouldn't impact you that much. Because it does, it suggests to me some insecurities and uncertainty, even if not admitted. It would be different if someone showed up at your house and berated his culture, but that isn't happening, is it?

Don't bring all Moroccans into this to try and discredit me and legitimize your relationship, Lisa.

..You type this message to me judging him in the same boat as so many other when in fact there are people right here in each of our countries that can scam women as well....

Lisa, Western women aren't likely to scam for a visa to go to the Third World, it would be easier for them to just do it legally. Besides, what reason would they have to leave? We have it made here in the West.

So, most people in the West prefer to stay there.

The scams, or problems as a more broad category that do happen here in the West usually involve money, premarital sex, cheating, abuse and living together before marriage. Judge Judy kinds of things.

I myself have been had real nicely by a secular, socialist agnostic from the USA. Gotta love certain social liberals and their desire to manage other people's money while they don't give up a single cent for their cause.

However, Lisa, that does nothing to make your relationship all the more real. You seem to be just saying that to justify what doesn't seem to be there.

.you are so judgmental of all these men...

I have said on this forum many, many times, Lisa that this behavior is NOT exclusive to Moroccans or Muslims. No one who posts regularly on this forum is judgmental.

Don't think for a single second that I'm going to tuck tail and run at the notion of race or culture. I'm not afraid to discuss it and discuss it thoroughly and controversially.

just like some of my family members because he the "Moroccan-muslim" is foreign to us and he is different and maybe even darker skinned in some cases.....

I think maybe, just maybe, Lisa, your family is concerned also because real love doesn't happen on-line? So feel free to drop the race card, ok? And by current racial classification that everyone uses (and misuses), many if not most Moroccans are Caucasian. Mediterranean people tend to be darker than people from Scandinavia, but it may interest you to know the northern native tribes there have closer genetic links to Moroccans than to other Europeans.

So, really, throwing the skin color/culture card at me....not going to work.

You think you know my fiancé......My fiancé wants nothing from me but my love.....

I know your situation. I don't have to know everything about him. In fact, there's plenty you've said already that has convinced me this is not for real.

I think you ought to read amy's response. Fiancé? You're going to marry a man you've never even met, and you're telling me I'm ridiculous???

Has he proposed to you then? Or are you so far gone that you're just assuming? Because I've encountered this type of on-line "fiancé" stuff before. It was a nightmare, to say the least.

You are so quick to jump to your conclusions that I must be a rich westerner or rich and he is after me for my money...

Not as quick as you are to marry to this man (9 months on-line was it?), but I'm not rushing into conclusions. The warning signs are clear as day.

First of all, "rich" is in the eye of the beholder, but you're not going to get much sympathy from me considering that you have internet access and if things are so bad for you, you'd be looking on monster.com or some other place for a job.

Whatever the case is, he sees you as better off, and that's all that matters, not how you perceive yourself, Lisa.

guses what Luigi....I am almost as poor as he is and it does not change his feelings for me as I did not go out seeking a rich man which I could have If I wanted one....

So, are you dating this man to prove that you are tolerant in terms of race, religion, culture and economic status? Wouldn't be the first time. That's what happened during the civil rights era here in America.

you are in no position to know what this man wants from me..

Actually, you've given me all I need to know to assess the situation at hand, and since you're on here and not spending time with your man, you may as well read about how similar your story is to everyone else's, including mine. Aside from the glowering red flags, your mere presence on here and the fact that you took the time to write a long essay to me speaks volumes about what is going on.

I grew up with the internet, I've been talking to people on it since I was 12, and I am an experienced blogger. What you are saying, Lisa, is nothing new at all. I've seen all these excuse and race, income-status and relationship baiting and it's just not going to work. I've been around way too long for that.

..Unlike the other stories here posted...Mohahammed B. doesn't care where we live.

So what? I've heard that one before too, Lisa.

....Its totally up to me.....He will be just as happy at either place.....He is helping pay for my trip.....He doesn't care if it takes two years to come live here to be with me cause he does love me and yes when he sees me he and I both want nothing more to touch and you don't need to be in the flesh to develop feelings and love...

Yes, Lisa, you DO need to be in the flesh to experience the kind of love you are talking about, because touch is part of communication. You don't necessarily need it for a crush or for infatuation, which is exactly what this sham of an engagment you are in is all about.

So, before you said both you and he were poor, but now he can help you pay for your trip? Don't you see the inconsistencies here? Goodness, you must be pretty well off because I can't afford to go to Morocco. It's not even on the table.

This man will tell you anything if he knows that you won't leave on whim. He can take more chances and gambles.

..You are right once we see and spend time together, our love will just be stronger and we both have discussed the fact Im older and have my own children and can never bear him any and I have asked him if there would ever be any regrets...

It doesn't matter if you've discussed the fact that you are older. The difference with liars and scammers in the dating realm is that they aren't afraid to talk about honesty, loyalty and how "age is but a number." Oh yeah, Lisa, I've heard that before too on here more than once.

Men who are scammers will even call you rude if you ask probing questions or even threaten to leave if they think it will help them get you.

I don't think you really understand, Lisa, what a slimy business this is, and I think you're too caught up in the fact that he's different and from somewhere exotic to see what is really going on.

his response"if my kids could share some fatherly love that he may have inside will be fine with him, and he asked me, how do I know I can even have kids, also he said Kids are not all of our lives baby"...

Sound nice, doesn't it? A lot of scams and scandals do until you've been had. They really wouldn't work if the whole "time to fool her" element wasn't there. This statement pales in comparison to the red flags here, and sweet things like that get said all of the time. Why else do you think women are roped in so easily?

We have discussed every issue.....we both have taken every precaution including blood tests to be performed and also criminal police reports from local city or FBI has to be obtained before marriage and he has had an aids test....

Those are medical precautions, Lisa!!! As long as your man isn't carrying a rare disease or is a terrorist, the government really doesn't care! All the personal issues are yours and his to deal with, and if he is scammer (which he could very well be), then you're the one who's going to pay the price.

The thing about living in Africa, Lisa, is that the police can be bribed, and if he can afford to help pay for your trip (well, he says he will, but he might change his mind once you arrive), he can afford to bribe them.

Also, the fact of the matter is, crime and corruption is a problem in Morocco as it is in most Third World. The fact that you would take this man at his word over something like that makes this even more ridiculous, especially since you feel the need to try and convince me about it.

.I am not some naive woman in love here and I don't take kindly you judging me as one...

Again, no one is judging you, but it is VERY naive if you think that this is going to end with happily ever after.

..I am well educated and so is this man....

Education.....got to love it.

What does it mean to be educated, Lisa? I hear that a lot when I debate liberals from Europe and the USA. They say they are "educated."

Getting an "education" means less and less as the months tick by. Here in the West, we are really just producing a society of test-takers that hinders innovation. Most of the people in my field come here from different countries because Americans, in some cases, would rather party, talk on AIM and watch football than do calculus.

Also, the institutions seem to think that sex ed on GLBT issues and biased propaganda about multiculturalism and tolerance and diversity should take up from the three R's, and why, it should even be an excuse to not do well in school or to get into to law program. There was a case like that with African-American men at one our universities, but because they were admitted due to the concentration of melanin in their skin as opposed to academic credentials, and they probably thought they could coast because they didn't have to work as hard to get in, and what happened? They ended up not graduating.

In the Middle East and North Africa, literacy rates are plummeting due to heavy population growth. Soon, the only educated people will be a smattering of engineers, doctors and lawyers, but mainly the radical Islamic clergy who already tell their people things like "Danish women marry dogs."

So, I'm really not impressed by education anymore, Lisa. I've been in that system now for 8 years, and it's becoming a joke and a huge waste of financial resources.

I don't suppose along with "proof" of criminal record he has "proof" of a degree?

.You said oh he has other wifes he will stow away,lol..

If he does have a wife, or two or three, it wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Then, I don't think you'd be the one laughing.

..you don't know this man but yet you act like you do.

That's what, the second the time you've said, Lisa? I don't need to know what his quirks or his favorite kind of ice cream is to know this situation. You said you got an education? Maybe that's what (at least partially) is eroding your common sense here. I don't have to write a dissertation about your man to see the light of truth here, Lisa, you've given me plenty of reasons already and you've communicated to me more than you realize it seems. That's a concern, because there are things happening with your relationship that you refuse to see.

..we have discussed this issue as well...there will never be any 2nd wife and there will bea contract signed and his dad has two wifes his mom being second wife but the man is 74....but Mohammed thinks this was a selfish act on his dads part and it has caused turmoil in his family home with the dad sharing his life at two homes......

It doesn't surprise me one bit that there is tension. It's really the basic biological fact of sharing an intimate partner with someone else. For the man, heck, he's having the time of his life.

My comment on the 2nd wife scenario is that it does happen, and who knows? Maybe Mohammed (Simo) will change his mind. The reality is, Lisa, a lot of foreign bride/grooms do a complete 180 once the "I do's" are said. The same thing happens with Russian women and American men. I think of one case where once the Russian got over here, she basically ignored the man, learned English and got a drivers liscense and left. Took about three years.

Another reader on here, sash, used to defend her Moroccoan husband also, until she caught him cheating, possibly even while she was defending him on here.

I did not give you enough facts for you to judge him like others......I have cancelled this trip twice due to financial situations that

The minor details don't really add up to much. Other posters have also thought that by being detailed with their posts it would make their situation more "unique" and therefore real. There is some seriously flawed logic here if you think that

he is aware of and if he wasa con he would move on and find someone rich after all they are mostly taught this right?

As I said earlier, he probably does see you as rich. He could, but then he'd have to start all over again. He's clearly got in you in the bag, and you are like melted butter in his hands, and he knows it, Lisa. That's not a Moroccan thing, that's a guy thing.

Even the women must find rich men.........This man is very attractive as I am considered athletic and attractive as well and I get compliments all the time when with my 22 yr old son and people think he is my boyfrnd so don't be thinking age can be a bad thing....

Ha! I have NO doubt that you are attractive, Lisa. My mother still gets carded at bars, if you can believe that.

The fact that he is Moroccan or Muslim or whatever doesn't matter. There is a growing trend of flings between older women and younger men in the West and in North Africa. But that is exactly what they are: flings. Not marriage or relationships.

When you add international dating to the mix, the chance for these types of relationships to succeed even without red flags is still very minimal.

Lisa, I am writing this to you out of concern. I don't think you are 100% convinced of this yourself, even if you don't realize it.

.I may even feel and look younger than him so he tells me......I know regardless what I say here you will have something negative to say...women...don't listen to some bad experiences on here and take the time to read and know your man's character and true feelings.....Lisa

That's kind a of paradox, because if to be positive is to do the right thing, well, it's often not always the easy thing. On-line dating is not easy for most people, and it never will be. I think the biggest mistake that people make with is that they are looking for a quick fix and it's easy (especially for men) to be more confident on-line than in real life.

The problem is, Lisa, it's pretty much impossible for women to tell if their man is coming across as honest or not over the internet even with a webcam!!!

What brings so many women on here, I think, is that they don't know, because they can't actually go out on dates with their man, touch him, see his eyes, body language; they can't calibrate emotional states, and induce mirroring as Marius Panzeralla describes in Dating Secrets Revealed. As a result, YOUR ability to detect male nonsense goes down!

They come on here because they aren't sure and ask themselves, "Am I just being paranoid"? I think that next to being seen as a slut, women don't want to be seen as paranoid! And usually there is no evidence it's a scam because they don't know the warning signs!

I understand this isn't easy for you to hear, Lisa, but what did you expect? Everyone to roll out the red carpet and congratulate you, despite our knowing better?

You picked a really poor place for that, but I think there's more too it than that. You are so "in love" you say, yet you seem to need the attention of this blog.

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