Nura: Don't be deceived. Be enlightened. Study early Islamic history.

Submitted by Plato (India), May 14, 2008 at 12:48

Nura, you write:

>>So You are calling me to a "less" bloody religion. which all of your suggestions are pagan.<<

Yes I am. What is wrong with pagans? Haven't they proved they are far less bloodthirsty than monotheistic religions and absolutely tolerant of other people's beliefs, again unlike your prophetic faiths? Why do you want to be part of a religion that asks you to disrespect people of other faiths, a religion which gives you a contract to kill or be killed and in return promises you paradise (9:111)?

>>One of the most fundamental reasoning when choosing a religion is that you have to actual believe that it is the truth.<<

I would argue for choosing a religion not on the basis of mere belief that it is true but on the basis of being able to prove it to be true. If you cannot prove any religion to be true and you feel the need to choose one then at least it should be an ethical one. Given the fact that Islam calls for the killing of infidels merely on the basis of disbelief, that it condones slavery, allows keeping slave women as concubines, considers women a degree below men and allows men to thrash women who they believe are being disobedient, it will rank far below many a pagan religion.

>> How would it serve me to convert to a religion that I believe is false, trade one God for a hundred?<<

It would serve you well if you examine the ethical foundations of your religion and compare it with what the pagans have to offer. Believing someone who claims he is the voice of god merely because he says so is naiveté of an extreme kind. It would serve you well to look into the personal behaviour of this person who claims to be a messenger of god.

If one god can pop out of nowhere and no when why can't a zillion of them?

>>You are asserting that paganism, as long as it does not entail war, is the right way.<<

I am only asserting paganism is the better way compared to Islam and not necessarily the right way.

>> Let me ask you a question. How did Hindus, Buddhist, respond in India when it was invaded by the British? India was colonized by the British, no one fought back? <<

India was invaded by Muslims (and others before that) more than a thousand years ago and were defeated in several bitterly fought wars. The British then fought the Muslim and remaining Hindu rulers and ruled for more than a hundred years. Ask yourself why Muslims invaded India? Ask yourself why the British following a religion that begot your religion invaded India

>> Was not Ghandi killed by a Hindu? Was there not massacres between Muslims and Hindus were both side were engaged in civil conflict?<<

And yes there were massacres between Hindus and Muslims at the time of partition. They do happen now too. Hindus assassinated Gandhi. Hindus do kill people now and then. But they do not indulge in mass killing for the sake of their religion.

>>Why would I convert to a religion where being a woman is considered bad Karma, The greatest hope for a woman is to be born a man in the next life. Where women are expected to burn themselves after their husbands die. Where you have a class system that still have groups of people known as the untouchables? Where women my be burn or killed if their dowry in not enough for the groom. Sorry, not for me.<<

I suggest you pay a visit to India and have a good look at what Indian women are up to today. A lot of what you charge Indian society with is true. Neither Indian men nor women will deny it. But if you think they are the order of the day, then all I can say is you have been reading Mansoor's posts on this forum and believing him.

Now if you don't mind being considered a second rate human, being just another woman in your husband's life, living in fear of being thrashed if he considers you disobedient, well then the life of an Indian woman is not for you, for the Indian woman can become whatever she aspires to, prime minister, president (check who is the Indian president now), rocket scientist, astronaut, CEO of multinational companies, take her husband to court, and inherit equally from her parents (except Muslim women because Muslims insist on having their own personal laws).

>>You should study the "beginning" of Islam. Muslims were ordered to fight for their very existence. They were persecuted, tortured, and exiled form their homes. They tried to establish a peaceful home when they were threatened by extermination.<<

Nura, what you have stated above only tells us that your knowledge of the "beginning" of Islam is what your mullahs taught you and they were being very, very dishonest. Let me walk you through the facts of the beginnings of Islam

1. Fact: Muslims were told to fight and dominate all religions. Proof? Sura 3:85, 61:9

2. Fact: Muslims were not persecuted by the pagans as long they did not abuse their idols and beliefs (Ibn Ishaq, Page 118). Muhammad preached and preached intrusively in Mecca for nearly 13 years without the Qureish doing much. They made some ineffectual complaints to his uncle and protector, Abu Talib . Some of his minor followers (you can count them on the fingers of your hands) were persecuted for insulting their forefathers' faith. (What do Muslim do now for perceived insults to their religion? Kill and maim innocents who have nothing to do with it!)

>> Their first war in Islam was 300 Muslim soldiers against 1,000 invading pagan Arab soldiers.<<

If proof were needed that you have no clue about Muslim history this is it. This invasion as you call it was precipitated by Muhammad going on a raiding expedition to intercept Abu Sufyan's caravan carrying rich goodies. Abu Sufyan escaped and the Qureish to teach Muhammad and his marauding band sent a large force against the raiders. This is the much trumpeted ‘invasion' by the Meccans as you call it. And before this the Prophet had sent some of his henchmen to intercept another Qureishi caravan during the holy months, killed one man and captured another and took booty, all without any provocation.

Ibn Ishaq Page 289….They said when the apostle heard about Abu Sufyan coming from Syria, he summoned the Muslims and said, ‘This is the Quraysh caravan containing their property. Go out to attack it, perhaps god will give it as prey.' Do these words sound like that of a highway robber or not?????

>> It was a defensive battle as the one's that followed. Jihad is defensive and necessary in times of war.<<

You still want to call it a defensive war, Nura? What was defensive of this attempted attack on a peaceful caravan. Will not any people try and punish would-be bandits indulging in this kind of highway robbery?? Were the Quraysh not entitled to teach the prophet a lesson for launching continuous raids on their lifeline?

>>The level of mercy shown by a Muslims during war is unmatched. History proves this also if you study it.<<

I hate to point out to you again that you seem to know zilch about the history of your religion, except what has been fed to you by your maulanas. Let us take a look at the kind of unmatched "mercy" shown by the prophet and his companions.

This is what the merciful Allah instructed the mercy to mankind: Pickthal: 8:67 It is not fitting for any prophet to have captives until he hath made a slaughter in the land…. (Yusuf Ali ashamed of this verse tries to hide its implications by translating this as ..for a prophet to have prisoners of war…).

Khalid bin Walid, the Sword of Islam: Ibn Ishaq page 561…and they themselves laid down their arms at Khalid's word.' Hakim b Hakim from abu Jaafar Muhammad b. ‘Ali told me: As soon as they had laid down their arms Khalid ordered their hands to be tied behind their backs and put them to the sword, killing a number of them. When the news reached the apostle he raised his hands to heaven and said, ‘O god, I am innocent before thee of what Khalid has done.' (What a just prophet. He does not even admonish Khalid, let alone punish him, but conveniently pleads innocence before Allah).

>>People rather ignore these historical perspectives because it is easier to demonize an entire people.<<

I can give many, many more such authentic historical perspectives about Islam, but time and space are at a premium. Who has demonized Islam, Nura? I have only quoted from a great admirer of Muhammad.

>>Your loss, remain deceived. You may not deserve enlightenment.<<

I will not wish you the same. You deserve better. You deserve not to be deceived, you deserve to be enlightened. All you need to do is study Islam's history written by Muslims in the sira and the hadith.

Regards

Plato

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