Liars' sensibilities and chewing gum as an insult to Ataturk's memory

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), May 13, 2009 at 08:20

berk akk wrote :

"Frankly, reading your answers I often have the impression a machine has automatically generated them"

>Dear friend,unfortunately i also see same on your answer as automatically generated .<

> Does nt give you an impression of automatically generated answer.<

What a shift in tactics ! A while ago [Apr 22, 2009 at 14:50] you wrote about me : "You seems to me well educated and researcher personal". Now you say the opposite. Have you ever suffered from memory disturbances?

"Hence the best thing is never to trust a Turk when he praises or upbraids anything."

>Please give me an example of a country or a nation whom you can trust so that we can compare independently.<

How about Israel ?

"Again your self-observations overriding reality ?"

>That give me an impression you want to build a world made up up of only your realities.<

Contrary to you I build my world on external documents and resources. Just compare my and your discussions on Gallipoli , not to come back to the so called "Polish village" Polonezkoy.

"You are just a Turkish nationalist hell-bent on whitewashing Turkey and Turkishness and deny any evidence, any facts, any conclusions that might expose your jingoistic superego. This is all Turks are determined to keep glorified. Truth, objective history is nothing they really understand or care about."

> Trurt and objective can only exist in you ,but never in all turks:) <

Truth can't exist among people who are physically and psychologically terrorized if they refuse to comply to the official version of everything. What sort of truth is it that you are jailed for admitting Kemal's crimes in Smyrna, Pontus and elsewhere? ... But what do I say "Kemal's crimes" ? If Turks jail other Turks for chewing gum during a public ceremony, what can one expect for expressing loud doubts about his alleged sanctity ? [ Veysel Dalci, head of the local branch of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in the Black Sea town of Fatsa, was charged with insulting Ataturk's memory during Sunday's ceremony marking Turkey's National Sovereignty Day.]

> What a big proud is this?You are better than any turkishnes here.<

Are you attacking my person to deflect attention from the unleasant arguments I have disclosed here? I do assert that Turks will never tell anything wrong about Turkey even if they know it and unless forced with sources and facts gleaned from elsewhere will deny all. In fact Turkishness reinforced by Islam is the biggest obstacle to finding out the truth about Turkey. Lying is the biggest obstacle to truth, isn't it ? And both Turkishness and Islam are two global lies.

"In another scene, a group of apparent organ buyers includes a man clearly dressed as an Orthodox Jew"

> I dont like this film personaly.Such impressions should not be scened .But there are thousands of films among the world many impression scened against almost every religion,nations etc.,...<

Again explaining away what is unpleasant and unflattering instead of admitting it ? But this film is not like any other in Turkish history. It had a budget of $10.2 million and so is the most expensive Turkish film ever. Its popularity was reflected in the profits it made. The film grossed $27.9 million at the box office - $25.1 million in Turkey and $2.8 million in Europe. Bülent Arınç, the Chairman of the Turkish Parliament said about it "Yes, this was exactly as it happened" in this "extraordinary film that will go into history". Sadly enough, the movie is largely unknown where it should be most carefully watched - the US.

"Why there are no Armenian films about Turkey in Ataturkistan ?

"Not only ermenians but any group including turks giving nationalist seperatist impressions feeding enmity should be banned.<

... in the name of love peace and freedom, of course ? ... Anyway, why do you write 'should' ? In Turkey anything "giving nationalist separatist impressions" and more is banned and persecuted. Just some cases :

Ragip Zarakolu persecuted for publishing of a Turkish translation of a book by Dora Sakayan "Experiences of an Armenian Doctor: Garabet Hacheryan's Izmir Journal", and a book by George Jerjian "The Truth Will Set Us Free: Armenians and Turks Reconciled" on charges of "denigrating Turkishness and the security forces" , "denigrating the state and the republic" , "insulting Ataturk's memory" .
Fatih Tas persecuted for publishing a Turkish translation of a book by the American author John Tirman "The Spoils of War: the Human Cost of America's Arms Trade", "that reportedly includes a map depicting a large section of Turkey as traditionally Kurdish and alleges that the Turkish military perpetrated a number of human rights abuses in the south-east of the country during the 1980s and 1990s."

Murat Pabuc , a retired lieutenant in the Turkish army . While serving in teh army he witnessed the massive earthquake that hit Turkey in August 1999, as well as the institutional corruption that followed it. He became disillusioned with the military. He is persecuted for "public denigration of the military" for his book "Abandoning the Duty of the Painted Bench" which alludes to a Turkish parody of a soldier following orders blindly.

Birol Duru and Rıdvan Kızgın persecuted on charges of "denigrating the security forces" for publishing on the Dicle news agency a press release from the Human Rights Association (IHD) which stated that the security forces were burning forests in Bingol and Tunceli. The military are paricularly fond of the latter. Circa 50 (!!!) cases have been opened against him.

> Can you give an example about england ,spain seperatist action films?<

It would eb a very long list indeed. How about "the Patriot" (the Americans against the English ), "the Braveheart" (Scots against the English) "Behold a Pale Horse"(1964) the anarchists in Spanish civil war , "Libertarias" (1996) Spanish anarchists' female brigade... A whole study could be made on depicting and glorifying the rebel, the dissident , teh free thinker in the Western and Russian movies. What a contrast with abject Turkish conformism !

Now give the Kurds a chance and liberty and you will see what mastrpieces will be produced.

> Ataturkistan word in your letter for example make a bad impression on you becouse it is also another auto generated word.<

Ataturkistan is "the land of Ataturk". What's wrong about it? Turkey is his creation, his brainchild, his is the only worship in this land. It's a totally justified term that precisely reflects the realities of the land. You don't like because it sounds like Turkestan -that backward , primitive desert-infested Central Asia you , pseudo-Europeans, came from?

"Jews tend to be oversensitive to anti-Semitism and they have to be !"

>I agrree with you.Please think,if we please also impress turkish sensivitiy on words ataturkistan,nomads,liers,ignorants,massacres,etc ... <

Don't compare Jews with Turks, please! How many Noble Prize Winners in Science did you Turks produce? And how many Armenians did the Jews exterminate? "Turkish sensitivities" is a tricky word. It is better understood when translated explictly "Liars' sensitivities" We mustn't offend liars' sensibilities , needn't we?

>If you remove the word above "turkey" and put "ottoman dnasty and his collaborators".In 1914 There was no turkey .<

If in 1914 there was no Turkey, so how could the name 'Turkey' pop up in English as early as 1369 ? And who were Jöntürkler (Young Turks) and what were their program and deeds then? Turkey was born long before Kemal who was the continuator and the finisher of the Young Turks' ideology of Turkism and Turkification. For your information, one of the points of the Young Turks' program was to purge the Turkish langue of its non-Turkish elements. Young Turks proposed it Kemal did it. And most young Turks joined later Kemal's party.

"I have the impression that you are very displeased with my criticisms and crave after eulogies of your favourite angelic Turkishness"

>I have not displeased about your criticism.But ı said and now say againg ,i am disapointed about your words like"angelic,nomadic,non rational,your civil war blood expactancy and happines behind it .etc.tens of them"

Without these words my crticisms would be impossible. And mark it, they stand at the end of my reasoning not at the beginning. So you can't invalidate them without refering to what precedes and justifies them.

"How do you mean "tired of discususing with them"? Are they more PC than you ?"

> Interestingly the opposite.They dont know what this country mean for them.If this counry collapse noone will help them .<

Are they Turks who don't care about Turkey? That sounds incredible.

"So disclose Turkey's evils now! It's your chance to do me a big favor if you can. And please be specific and avoid too general and watered down statements."

>Please set up my limits clearly.Too general? like your statements "all turks"?<

Say some bad things about Turkey (we are too often told how sweet and good she is) and I'll tell you more.

"You can substantiate your claims by dislosing your sources, by providing references and quoting relevant documents upon which what you say is based"

> Lets us try ......i am ready for supplying you any document if available upon request.but i afraid it has no chance to be regarded as true after reading your <

First do and then speak.

"I know it's the hardest part as all you say is based on Turkish historical and political fiction and forgery"

"Kemal was no doubt a brilliant story-teller. Unfortunately, his last fairy tale romance called "modern Turkey"

>what kind of a tale is this? 75 million people and a land that can bee seen from google earth is a tale?A country with thousands of cities is a tale? <

Are 80 000 Turkish mosques also visible from google earth? ... Erratic nationalism, falsified history, despotism, lies about secularism, the Army as the new janissaries' corps ... it's all part of Ataturk's 'success story' ... Turkey is a colossus walking on the feet of clay.

"credible source for understanding what is going on in Ataturkistan and around it"

>Who is the credible source arount it ?<

CIA Factbook e.g. Turkey 99,8% Moslem... Who is the incredible source ? Berk Akk with his tales : "Turkey is a country of inncoence and freedom" , "Polonezkoy a Polish city in Istanbul"...

"E.g. how can I treat a Moslem whose Allah teaches : [9.29] "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth ... " ?"

>let me explain you how this verse understand in general public sense and myself Please pay attention the integrity of verse .It is mostly about war situation agreements..it starts "This is a declaration of immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement" now,folowing numbers such as 9.4 "Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term..............."

What a fine Moslem apologist you are. One might think, not an enginner but a fully-fledged imam!

Anyway, a Moslem making in earnest agreements with "the worst beasts in Allah's sight" (8.55) ? Is it another of your jokes? It's all a hoax to fool us and rob us of our freedom, culture and impose your sickening Islam upon us. Whatever crime a Moslem commits, the kafir will never find justice among the Moslems. So what use are these sweet embelishment of Allah's hate-and-war manifesto ?

> Numbers in seperate verses does not mean it is isoleted from the integrity of the verse.we come to 9.7"So as long as they are true to you, be true to them;"<

Do you think I am an idiot ? Where does Allah give us kafirs any right to defend ourselves against Moslem aggression ? He demands we be true to Moslems, but forbids a Moslem to make friends with kafirs (5.51).

>When i came to 9.29 I see that there is a legal right to fight with those who disobeyed the agreement.<

No agreements with Allah's eemies =kafirs have binding force unless made under duresse or to gain a major later victory for the Moslems. All you say is therefore a nasty swindle.

>Modern countries has also war laws ,agreement laws against any of their possible enemies.<

Modern laws are not written by Allah in whom you stupidly believe. And they are no codes of tribal warefare but products of European Enlightenment.

>If we read them without an integrity,we can conclude horror films.<

E.g.? Cutting off fingertips, hands , feet and beheading just like in Allah's manual of terror (5.53; 8.12) ?

> i never understand that a muslim not forced by quran to fight with jews ,christs or anyother religion based on a reason that they dont believe in allah or in islam.<

Sure, why should you ? It might cast a shadow of 'the religion of peace"...

A Moslem comes to a kafir and says : "I invite you to embrace Islam". The kafir says : "No, thank you" and the Moslem says : "I have sent him a message of peace. I wanted him to be my brother in Islam. He rejected it. Allah give me the right to assault him now. I declare jihad on him." ...In brief it is how Polish-Turkish wars started with Turkish missions sent to Cracow and Warsaw and then a bloody jihad against us.

"But wait .. How dare I complain ? Our Moslem might feel offended that I confront him with his own religion in such an unflattering way (truth is nothing he might paricularly care about ) and feel that I have insulted him personally"

> You actually dont confront and insult intellectual muslims.Evaluation of verses without an integrity can of course result a unatractive conclusions.<

I notice that you have problems with memory. Your profound knowledge of the Quran may help you to tackle the issues raised by my anwer to your insidious comment : "Insulting other religions is primitive behaviour" , won't it?

> To be more clear,for an example take a drug receipie.there written daily dosages like" 3 pieces in one day".That doesn mean one one will take 3 in each day till he dies.It is for illness cycle.Of course we all know this.But...Your condition for an agreement "If you say : "Sorry, Ianus, I was wrong. Actually, I agree Islam is a nasty stupid BS and no one in his senses can care about that immoral Arab camel-driver's drivel - his Allah, daily prayers and criminal record disguised like superior 'morality' "" is a disapointment from my side.What kind of a doctrine forcing oneside agreement is this...<

The doctrine is very simple and rational. It's better to agree on principles and the major things than seek a compromise on details without importance as you have repeatedly tried to do (see your comment "agreements"). We have nothing to agree upon as far as principal matters are concerned. You are a Moslem and a Turk in the full sense of both of these terms.

"And what is taught in Turkish school then? That most Turkish/Turkic civilizatory words like "iron"(demir), "gold"(altın), "silver"(gümüş) "

> I am also graduated froom a turkish school and not teached as how you described.But turks in history has used iron,silver as many other people did. <

While others have no problems admitting having borrowed things them from other civilizations, the Turks have invented a super-civilization where Turks - the masterrace- lend everything nothing as all is theirs. It breeds this contempt for all non-Turks that is so characteristic of them.

>by the way why it is so unacceptable that turks in history may have invented iron ?<

If they did , why the Turkic word for "iron" (demir) has a Chinese etymology ?

> Nobody says at other parts of world iron usage was not invented. nobody says" only turks" invented iron, silver ,cheese ,etc...<

Ataturk said something to this effect. He even found Niagara was a Turkic word too, and so the Turks were native to America , weren't they ?

>In schools there is lectures seperately for turks in history as well as other cultures in history like big civilisations.<

All civilizations (Sumerians, Hittites etc.) are Turkic in origin according to the official Kemalist history lie.

>For a simple example we are teached that first inventers for printing machine was chinases not by turks.<

In an earlier lesson you are told that Chinese civilization comes from Turkic settlers and forged 'historical' maps show their routes of migration.

>edison discovered lamp.bell discovered telegraph,eisntein e=mc2,egyptians built pyramides, ...what is the strange for this teach?<

You are told that Scadinavians, Greeks and Europeans, even Egyptian descend from the Turkish pre-race ... so all those inventions are attributable to the great Turkic race whatever the names, views and history of the inventors might have been.

> should we teached as turks are nothing and never invented something, ?

And what did you Turks - excepting Ataturk's mad historiosophy - exactly invent according to you?

>who teach such a approach to his citisens?<

Truth hurts and is not favourable to public morals in some parts of this world. It's hard to face one's failure and its magnitude is appalling, isn't it ?

"What is more you find moral and formal reasons to complain of this or that conculsion of mine "My complaints is not based on your complaints but your words like "all turks"nomadic turks""ataturkistan"ignorant" "agreement limits" etc..............

Again, these words are based on previous reasonings , so attak facts,dates and arguments before you start whimpering.

>As to philosophy , I am afarid that you have been imbued with a totally erroneous one - as always in Ataturkistan"

>what is your offer for turkish people ? <

Facing the bitter truth , feeling remorses , repenting, changing minds and ways instead of changing one big lie for a bigger one ... I know it's too much I am asking for.

>court and jails for them ?<

Many in Turkey do deserve them and more .

> stateles people?crying children on gueue for visa apllication to embasies ? or what ?<

Why? ...Freedom of speech, some respect for the Greek cemeteries and churches in Northern Cyprus, freedom for the Ecumenical Patriarchate, return of the Hagia Sophia to the Patriarchate, spending a larger part of the inflated military budge on social and cultural programs .... to start with... Well these wishes will never come true as long a Turk remains a Turk.

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".