reply to Ianus' comment: A dialogue between a kaffir and and a "moderate" Muslim

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Jan 28, 2006 at 11:01

" What a fecund collection of Islamic wisdom! All for the "noble" cause of proving that we two kaffirs are wrong"
Thanks for the compliment.

" wonder if you're not the imam in your local mosque? "
You dont need to an Imam to have knowledge about your religion.

""Mistranslations" and "lies" ? …Examples , please, to prove the "facts"!

All your comments are filled with lies. Read Lisa's comments. same there. and Vinodgupt. mistranslations and quoting out of context.
By saying tht "all the negative beliefs ppl have about Islam are actually a result of mistranslations, lies and the Quoting of the Holy Quran without looking at the history of Islam, when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context.", I was not just refering to you but to others as well.(other non-muslims who have misconceptions about Islam)

"How can "the last Book of Allah", the "eternal book," "the eternal miracle", the "imperishable tablet," the "Mother of the Book, the "universal book", "all the guidance that humanity needs" , "the book addressing all peoples in the world irrespective of where they live or lived , valid for all times from the very beginning of the universe untli after the Day of Judgement "- to name just a few current description of the Heavenly Quran - be grossly and sacrilegeously reduced to "when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context"? "

WOW! so much narrow-mindedness. By quoting it out of context, you are changing its meaning to suit your lies. its like taking different alphabets from different parts of the quran and making your own sentences.

Besides, Quran is a book of SIGNS and not Science. The Quran says in Surah AL-ARAF, chapter number 7, verse number 35"
"O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My SIGNS unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. "(emphasis added)
The Quran is not an encyclopedia. It is a unique piece of literature with a lot of meaning in it. therefore you have to quote it in context and look at its history.

"That book is valid out of context , independent of where and when and why this or that ayat was revealed! "
A statement i would expect either from a liar or a jahileen

"If you relativise it and deny, you're making a clumsy human fogery out of the Quran!"

According to dictionary.com, Forgery is:
The act of forging, especially the illegal production of something counterfeit.
Something counterfeit, forged, or fraudulent.
the act of falsely making, altering, or imitating (as a document or signature) with intent to defraud; also : the crime of committing such an act
something that is forged
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=forgery)

None of these apply to my comments. I only quoted the Quran and explained its meaning in context. this you have to do in any book and denying this fact is the best proof tht you no concrete argument or reply yo my comments.

"If a Muslim disagrees on something with a kaffir, the Muslim must be ALWAYS right and the kaffir is ALWAYS wrong. This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"

Narrow-mindedness again.
You said tht in disagreement a muslim is right and non-muslim wrong because Allah is an enemy to non-muslims. LOL. Is tht a joke? u have an opinion, not a fact and u justify it by Misrepresenting a verse from the Holy Quran even though the verse has nothing to do with your opinion.
And read your previous comment. you said:
Mistranslations" and "lies" ? …Examples , please, to prove the "facts"!
heres your mistranslation:
"This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"
Its not actually a mistranslation, its more of a misrepresentation. because the verse 98 of chpter 2 says:
"Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith"
read the first part carefully, Allah is not the enemy of kaffirs, he is the enemy of whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles.

"Some kaffirs are unaware of this theonomical fact"
i have proved u wrong again. its not a fact

Tariq:It is a fact tht according to Islamic principles, what Osama and Saddam have done will sent them straight to hell.

Ianus:"It's your private opinion . The fact is that most Muslims have a different opinion on that and "who casts doubts on their faith leaves no doubt about his"…as I once read in one fatwa"
First of all, the primary source of Islam is the Quran and not the Muslims. So it doesnt matter wot muslims think. many of them are arrogant, and dont know about their own religion.
Secondly I read in a hadith tht if a muslim kills another muslim, he will go straight to hell
So it not my private opinion, its a fact tht in Islam a muslim like Osama and saddam will go to hell.

"Ianus : My reference if you happen to care about German is below . I don't have at present the book where I read about it :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salam

What is yours? "

Mine is a translated copy of Holy Quran by Yousuf Ali

"Besides is „as-salāmu alaikum" Islam ? "
Wot kind of a question is this? Islam is a religion and it is also a word which means peace gained through submission to god. And as-salāmu alaikum is a greeting.
If u were trying to ask if as-salāmu alaikum is an Islamic greeting, then yes it is ALSO and Islamic greeting as well as a greeting in a culture.

"[ Probably only to the extent that if a kaffir greets you this way you reply
instinctively: „wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum"...
not wa-s-sāmu 'alaikum, but wa laikumas salam.

"(And a quick death (sam) with you, kaffir.) "
We dont use the word 'sam' we use salam. And i have noticed tht u use kaffir negatively. kafir just means non-muslim just like gentiles mean non-jews.

"Tariq : Wrong Islam is derived from Salam itself and not just sharing the same root slm."

"Ianus : Give me a quote from a solid Arabic etymological dictionary – if you can find any because I far as I know Arabic is the only language that doesn't care about its own etymology … for good reasons !!! "

In case u didnt know, the fact tht Islam is DERIVED from salam is so well-known tht it is now common knowledge. and common knowledge need not be cited. you can do the research yourself.
And the arabs care about arabics etymology more than you care about understanding wot a person has to say before writing any kind of arguments.

"There is an astonishing resemblence between how Islam and how a mamba behaves.
http://www.annaqed.com/english/is/islam_meaning_of_word.html"

I visited this webpage and read some of the article. I read the first para and stopped reading it. Want to know y?
The article has lies from the start. the first sentence is this:
"Muslim propagandists are nowadays making extraordinary efforts to change the image of Islam by reintroducing it to the Western society as a religion that calls for peace and rejects all kind of violence."
NOWADAYS? REINTRODUCING?
Islam has always been a religion of peace, it has been for 1400 years. it doesnt matter wot muslims do.Many of them are ignorant about Islam like Osama and saddam.

"They evidently do."
Osama does not follow the Quran. he like many other muslims are doing against the Islamic teachings
"You don't."
You dont understand Islam ans you dont know who i am. So your comment has no meaning or importance.

"It was Muhammad who started looting the caravans even during Ramadan, not the Meccans…He was the attacker at first… "
i suggest increase your knowledge about Islam.
Muhammad(pbuh) did not start any war.The first war was fought to defend madina(in the battle of Badr)
And looting? u mean the taking the booty? it was common practice at tht time to take the stuff which your enemy has left behind. besides I see no harm in collecting the booty and recovering some of the financial damages tht your enemy has caused you.

"How can any attacker find me if I "and lie in wait for them in every stratagem"?..."
they can find you because they are attacking your country.
"and if I "beleaguer", I am the attacker again…so I kill the defenders…""
thts a nice one.
they are the attackers as they are attacking your city, in order to defend yourself you have to COUNTER-attack.

"But what safety are you talking about?"
Safety of living in the muslims city without any fear from the muslims.

"I robbed my enemy, enslaved his children and his wife , took possession of his house "
Your case is much different from the Muslims in the time of the Holy Prophet.
He didnt reob any1. How can he rob his enemies who live so far tht it can take more than month to reach them, and who are stronger financially and militarily?
how can he "enslave his children and his wife " when they are miles away(it would take him more than a month to get there). and how can he possibly take possession of his house?!!!!!!
Their(pagans) house were in makkah. and it is a well known fact tht the holy prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and other muslims during his time went to makkah only once during the time after his hijrat and the conquest of makkah and tht too with their swords as the only weapon and tht too covered.
(they went there for a pilgrimage after signing a treaty and came back without event. Also the it was nearly 11 years after his hijrat did he conquer makkah, tht also in a bloodless coup. and forgave all his enemys except a handful of them)

"The only option is either – kill him or sell him on the nearest slave market…or allow him a day or two to convert to Islam and join my marauding troops as I desperately need to replace the wounded and the killed from my own army."
The above are wot YOU would probably have done. But in Islams case theses ppl(who ahve changed their minds and now want peace) were peacefully allowed to live in madina. And Islam does not allow non-muslims to be forced to accepting Islam(if you think im wrong then quote a verse from the Holy Quran)
Besides, use your common sense. A person forced to change his faith would turn against the muslims in the next war, kill many muslims ans escape. this way muslims would be defeated in each and every war(which ofcourse didnt happen)

"Tariq : ever seen this happening anywhere else?
Ianus : You mean tribalism ?…"

I think you need to read Harrak's comments again. And Also read mine again and try to UNDERSTAND wot im saying.

"Ianus : A brillian metaphor for "the adobe of fire" or "hell"!"
thts your opinion

"Can I tell you in brief the story of Banu Quraisa "
thts wot it was. a story. I story originating from the mind of a person who has no tolerance for other religions.

"It was Muhammed who started robbing them. They defended themselves".
To answer this lie of yours i'll just qoute you:
'Don't distort history with newly invented ‘facts'!

Tariq : The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters and used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.
verse 9:29 does not say all non-muslims should be subdued only the non-muslims who have acted like these pagans of makkah did

Ianus : Explain that subtle difference to all the victims of Muslim terror and duplicity that have been subdued since the battle of Badr. But to put this verse in the context - at the time Muhammed relied on some non-Muslims as long he was not strong enough to get rid of them . So he just like Lenin distinguished carefully between the idiots that are "useful" and the idiots that were useful.

Do u hav anything useful to say? wot does your opinions about 'Muslim' terror, Muhammed(pbuh)relying on non-Muslims and lenin have to do with my comment.
Just admit tht you were decieving the visitors of danielpipes.org by quoting the verses 9:29,9:5 and 9:123 out of context or you can quote some other verse to prove tht I am wrong.

"Tell me one thing Ianus. Is paying tax evil? "
"Ianus : No,"
so you agree with me? i dont think so. i think i qouted you out of context!

"No, especially if the only option left for me is to have my throat cut or head smashed…'
In Islams case this is not an option. Islam gives the right to non-muslims to keep their faith in their religion(it you think im wrong, again prove it by quoting a verse from the Holy Quran.

"By the way, I am the kaffir from the "protected people".You are my Muslim master"
is bush a master of all americans?

"But who do you want to protect me against?... "
narrow-minded ppl take everything literally.
Protected ppl doesnt mean you are protected, it has been used FIGURATIVELY to mean tht your rights are protected.
read my previous comment again:
And jizya should be paid by all Dhimmis. Literally Dhimmi means protected people. These people have SPECIAL rights e.g. they can EAT PORK, drink WINE, gamble, etc amongst themselves. They can even trade in these things.(even though all this is HARAM IN ISLAM) and they can fFREELY build their places of WORSHIP. Only the working dhimmis have to pay jizya, children, old ppl, disabled etc are exempt from. and jizya is very little money. Much less than wot muslims have to pay for Zakat.(another kind of tax).

"France , Spain, Britain, Denmark, Sweden , Norway, Germany, Austria, Italy,Ireland, Belgium, Holland, America, Canda, Australia. "
living in non-muslim majority country, they have little knowledge about Islam

"Were it not to its inherent obscurity, puerility and contradictions that might be a reliable source."
obscurity? it seems obscure to you because you cant even understand my comments. i write something and you understand it completely differtently and reply back.
puerility? childish? Lol if it is chldish then please tel me. How come no1 has ever written a book with this much scientific accuracy and depth in meaning?
contradictions? like wot?
maybe you are amongst those ppl who think there are any contradictions in the Quran, but believe me, all these 'contradicitons' are a result of misrepresentation of the verses, or incomplete translations.

"Islam is not a religion like any other just like the dinosaur Tyrannosaurus Rex is not just an animal like any other"
Just like i said. u dont understand my comments, and reply back with comments which have no meaning and have nothing to do with anything.

"And its "holy script" differs a lot from all other Scriptures "
Wot exactly are u trying to say? say it clearly. do you mean to say tht a holy script is not the most reliable source for a religion?!!

"Isn't it almost the same ? "
Truly very intelligent comment!! Maybe in christianity it is the same. but no in Islam it ist.
In Islam there is a lot of difference in God and humans.

"Ianus : But that was a bungled job "
Read my comments carefully. i said:'fine tuned ecosystem and solar systems'
Science has proven tht the universe and all of natures systems are finetuned:
eg:
If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.
If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible
If earths distance from the were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.
If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible
A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.
The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.
If proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated
If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.

Now lets see wot the Quran has to say about Gods creations:-
"He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! "
(Qur'an, 67:3-4)
"He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly."
(Qur'an, 25:2)

Attention is drawn in the above verses to the measure and harmony in Allah's creation. The word "taqdeeran," meaning "to design, measure, create by measuring," is employed in Qur'anic verses such as Surat al-Furqan 2. The word "tibaqan," meaning "in harmony," is used in Surat al-Mulk 3 and Surah Nuh 15. Furthermore, Allah also reveals in Surat al-Mulk with the word "tafawutin," meaning "disagreement, violation, non-conformity, disorder, opposite," that those who seek disharmony will fail to find it.

"Tariq : How can a human be compared to god?"
"Ianus : He can if he is a good Muslim human! "

Can u plz reply with facts? In Islam a person cannot be compared to godeven if he is a good muslim.

"Are you referring to your Black-Stone worshippers?"
Again you didnt try to understand wot im trying to say.
anyways if you mean the hajray-aswad, then you just showed how ignorant you are.
muslims dont WORSHIP the black stone.

"Why didn't He deign to come here in person?..."
because he is not a person. and you dont have the ability to see him.

"Ianus: By god?... No! It's Muslim maniacs that punish and intimidate and kill them. Your Allah is an idiot's dream. Your constant ravings of Allah is sheer nonsense. It's you Muslims that kill and destroy people and make the victims believe it is not your hordes that do it but "God"…No guilt complex !... You are little allahs on eearth , maniacs and mass murders…Everyone of you is a tiny megalomaniac allah that wants to be worshipped and adored despite your ugliness and monstrosity… "

any reader would know how badly you need something solid to win this argument.

Tariq : Even the bible says tht in hell ppl will burn in liquid sulfur
Ianus : Even?… You know as a Muslim that the Bible has been abrogated by the Quran. So why quote a false source?
You sure have a lot of difficulty in understanding others comments. my suggestion to u is tht you read my coments atleast twice.
i was not Quoting the source. I was not saying that ppl should be punished in hell because the bble says so. I was only trying to tell you tht christians also believe in hell.

"Tariq: God has given humans something no other being has: intelligence and free will"
"Ianus : Credo quia absurdissimum"
Maybe your an exception

"Tariq : God has allowed humans to act as they want to."
"Ianus : If so why does He demand Islam(submission)? Either slavery or free will. "
y not both together? you have free will. God wants you to use it to either become a muslim or remain a non-muslim. its up to your free will.

"If your only reality is the hereafter,"
IF. a very important word. i didnt say tht this world is not REAL!!

"Go to your only reality instead of changing this one into a nightmare with your gloomy preaching!"
You really dont have any real arguments against me do you?

"Ianus: Don't thank me , thank Allah! "
Thanks to god tht he showed Ianus, one of his signs throw me
make tht two!

Tariq : In this verse God is not asking Muslims to burn any1.

Ianus : In fact! This pleasure is his!...Muslims must be satisfied with blood shedding, hanging, throwing people from towers, crucifying …Burning people is Allah's pastime.

It would be an Injustice on the muslims if non-muslims also go to heaven. NOW PLZ READ THIS PART OF THE COMMENT AGAIN AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WOT I M TRYING TO SAY: muslims spend their life for the cause of Islam. and non--muslims against it. Muslims serve Allah. and non-muslims dont. some of them have even killed,abused or tormented the believers. dont you think it would an injustice on muslims if the non-muslims get to go to heaven?(even after harming the muslims?)
In Islam, muslims are not allowed to harm other creations of god, muslims or non-muslims, or even animals.without reason.
Muslims have only 3 valid reasons to attack:
1) to defend themselves
2) to defend Islam(the Islamic way of life
3) to fight oppression or tyranny.

"Ianus : …"muslims who don't follow Islam"…I have always thought that "muslims who don't follow Islam" aren't Muslims at all…Thanks for correcting my poor logic "

They are muslims as they believe in Allah and his Prophet. but they dont follow Islam and only misrepresent Islam to justify their beliefs

"Ianus : Do you have children ? If you use to tell them fairy tales , so imagine I prefer the Grimms' collection to 1001 Nights"
What does it have to do with anything? why cant you write a decent answer when it comes to THINKING?!!
and answering you question, no i dont have children.

tariq:"HOW can a human 1400 years ago know tht at high degree burns, a humans pain receptors are destroyed, and even though they can still be poked hard and feel pain, in their muscles, tendons and bones, fire wont make them feel their skin burn?"

Inaus : Really , a man who was unable to learn how to write and read could have no idea of that. I am almsot sure he could not blieve other people were quite proficient both in writing and reading. Burning one's skin and its effects on senses is a common basic experience ever since the man found fire many thousands of years before the illeterate creator of Arabic literature appeared to proclaim man it had been unknown before…Anyway speaking of "pain receptors" how many times does the noble Quran mention Aristotle ?

This does not answer my qestion. 1400 no human could have known the scientific facts about pain receptors in any otherway except thru a divine revelation.
It was thought that the sense of feeling and pain was dependent only on the brain. Recent discoveries however prove that there are pain receptors present in the skin, without which a person would not be able to feel pain. When a doctor examines a patient suffering from
burn injuries, he verifies the degree of burns by a pinprick. If the patient feels pain, the doctor is
happy, because it indicates that the burns are superficial and the pain receptors are intact. On the other hand, if the patient does not feel any pain, it indicates that it is a deep burn and the pain receptors have been destroyed.

Prof. Tagatat Tejasen, Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University in Thailand, has spent a great amount of time on research of pain receptors. Initially he could not believe that the Qur'an mentioned this scientific fact 1,400 years ago. He later verified the translation of this particular Qur'anic verse. Prof. Tejasen was so impressed by the scientific accuracy of the Qur'anic verse, that at the 8th Saudi Medical Conference held in Riyadh on the Scientific Signs of Qur'an and Sunnah, he proudly proclaimed in public:
"There is no God but Allah and
Muhammad (pbuh) is His Messenger."

"Ianus : How can a dead man feel anything? Have you ever seen anyone dead and yet needing a fresh skin to take a sunbath ? "A dead feeling pain" is an oxymoron ."
ever heard the phrese hereafter?

"Ianus : Really? … How many angels do you have and why are they needed if Allah is omnipotent and One?...You need a servant if aren't self-sufficient … "
monotheistic means believeing in one god. it has nothing to do with angels.(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=monotheistic%20)
God does not need angels. Its us who do we are not capable to see God.

Tariq : It believes that God is one, and unique in His attributes.

Ianus : Why 99 names then for this unique One instead of one?

Becasue he is unique in 99 different attitudes.(unique here means, he is the only one who can completely be described as his 99 names.)

Tariq : Two types of plural: -

In several languages, there are two types of plurals, one is a plural of numbers to refer to something that occurs in a quantity of more than one. The other plural is a plural of respect.

a. In the English language, the Queen of England refers to herself as ‘We' instead of ‘I'. This is known as the ‘royal plural'.

"Ianus : She represents and symbolizes all the English past, all the kings and queens before her so no wonder she does it."
Yes but she is using the plural of respect, not the plural of quantity.

Tariq : b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.

Ianus : That would be a great job for Allah if He retires from his Throne one day…He can convert to Hinduism and use his plural of respect at will…He is omnipotent, you know.

Tariq : b. Rajiv Gandhi, the ex-Prime Minister of India used to say in Hindi "Hum dekhna chahte hain". "We want to see." ‘Hum' means ‘We' which is again a royal plural in Hindi.

Ianus : That would be a great job for Allah if He retires from his Throne one day…He can convert to Hinduism and use his plural of respect at will…He is omnipotent, you know.

so you admit tht you have no arguments to support your previous claim?
"He seems unaware that there are not two or three Allahs in the universe. "(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32268)

"Ianus : And still the hard fact on the ground is that "nahnu" is not "ana". Where is it stated in the Noble Quran that "nahnu" is a disguised singular?"

'ana' does not have plural of respect. Its not a DISGUISED singular, its just tht you have a little difficulty in understanding it(personally i think you understand me perfectly well, but as you dont have a valid argument against me, you have to write some crap)

Tariq:"Say He is Allah the One and Only."
[Al-Qur'an 112: 1]"

"Ianus : Who says this ? Muhammed , Gibrail or Allah?..."
Allah thru the Quran says this.

Ianus:"If Allah does how can He speak of Himself in the third person singular?"
Read the verse again will you? it says : "SAY(!) He is Allah the One and Only"(emphasis and exclamation mark added)

"Besides, if Allah is really omnipotent He doesn't care about the above because "Allah does what He wills." ( 2.253)"

Allah does wot he wills? well he guides his beings to the truth. thts wot he wills.
and heres a translation Surah Al-Baqarah chapter 2verse 253:
"Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan."

(in context plz!)

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