To Tariq:

Submitted by Joe (United States), Mar 19, 2006 at 21:25

Sorry for the delay Tariq, I just recently noticed this posting. I think it important to know that throughout history both sides have committed atrocities, whether they were un-Islamic or un-Christian. However, warfare of any kind is not permitted in the Bible. Killing is strictly forbidden, and even capital punishment is debatable. Within Islam, all three of those are debatable. Here is your rebuttal.

"violence in the Bible: to demonstrate its evil, it is not advocated"
Please see my comments: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/40305
And these: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/40321

Joe: " The Quran is like a horoscope..."
Not literally, but one can take a vague idea or generality and re-interpret it to mean practically anything. I do not mean it in a fortune-tellers' sense. I thought you would understand, because most likely, you have heard of people actually believing horoscopes told their future (along with the specific futures of millions of others!) The idea is that people have a tendency to take specific passages and turn them into something greater than they were meant.

I find the three stages more coincidental than anything else.
It is interesting that "sperm" came from the words "thickened fluid" or "small life germ" I thought the Koran said man was made out of "baked clay".

Muhammad said there were seven heavens. And guess what, there are 7 atmospheres! But you know what else, Muhammad also said that all the planets and celestial bodies existed in the first atmosphere. That would be right on top of us!

"Serious scientific errors in the Bible, Where?"
did u read my previous comments about genesis?
Yes: heavens to earth to animals to man (last created)

"Your quote personifies the Sun as a person, or even as a God, prostrating itself before Allah."
my quote?
Yes your quote that you used:
"The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.'" (36.38).
Muhammad is saying that the Sun moves around the earth, which is wrong. Then he says that the sun will eventually rise in the West! The Earth moves around the Sun. The Sun does not move around the earth. It doesn't actually disappear either, the earth simply rotates so that one side cannot see it. I am fairly certain that at some point it doesn't just stop, prostrate itself, and then come back to rise again.

If you are familiar with Egyptian animism, the Sun descended each day, and it was ambiguous as to whether it would rise again. The misconception is that the Sun actually doesn't do anything spectacular. It disappears because of the Earth.

Tariq, supposing you are religious, do you think that by reading the Qur'an you can decipher how to get Iraq to the moon? Or perhaps you can cure AIDS? I'm sure that that is in there somewhere. How did the west get anywhere without the immutable book of science?

Perhaps other religious books were more concerned with people living a decent life, other than useless "science" that is so generally interpreted that it is actually comical. You remind me of the people who interpret Nostradamous and think he actually predicted the future.

If a man didnt write the Quran. Then who did? Satan.

As for Hitler, Hitler did not use scripture to justify his war and murder. No where in the Bible is war or murder justified. Christians actually attempted to assassinate Hitler. Pious Christians (a.k.a. those against Nazism) were sent to the camps. Hitler used religion as a tool, just like Napoleon. I can claim that Christianity orders the killing of millions of Muslims, but that would not be Christian doctrine just because I said it. This is logical fallacy, or argumentum ad verecundiam (look it up).

U say tht bin laden is not a muslim and his acts are unIslamic, and I'll agree tht Hitler was an atheist.
I will agree they are mainstream un-Islamic, but not universally. His actions for him are justified in the Qur'an. "I am made victorious with terror"—Muhammad

"Muhummad Killed"
He had to defend himself
"Jesus did not"
U believe he was god. right? Y didn't he just wave his hands and turn the ppl throwing stones at him into Christians? (http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/38425)
Jews were stoning him right? More reason for Hitler to do wot he did.
This statement shows your ignorance of Christianity. The irony is that Jesus had the power and omnipotence to do so, but did not for all our sakes. Through His blood sacrifice do we gain eternal life. Because he was God he did not have to defend himself. Also, no one threw stones at him, and at this time there was no distinction between Jews and Christians.

"Muhummad pranced away to Mecca and hid under two coats of armor."
Didn't know u were so ignorant about Islamic history
Muhammad did not actually fight, but simply told others too.


"The Christians were persecuted viciously by the Jews and Romans,"
They took their revenge later on
The pacifism of Christians during the Roman empire serves to show that any persecution of other denominations by Christians is essentially un-Christian. It is against everything Jesus taught. I admit it happened, but I will not admit that it was what Jesus wanted.

"and did not run or fight"
Cowards
Yes, Tariq. Because when you choose not to run you are a coward. You got me good there. As I said, Christians should advocate absolute pacifism as they did here.

". The Medinans fought and killed"
Brave ppl defend themselves
Brave people defend themselves only when they must.

"and raped and pillaged"
Wake up
??? Please look up India: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32812


"Nero (look him up) made human lamp posts out of Christians and lined the roads with them. He tortured and killed an innumerable amount of them"
"Christians continued to practice peace and civil disobedience"
Eg suppressing jews and fellow Christians in Europe. And wen the muslims come to the rescue, ur pope starts a crusade. After u take back ur lands, the oppression and massacres starts again:-
Atrocities were committed by both sides. However, one can find reason to do so in the Qur'an.

"Someone draws a cartoon of the Muslims, they go crazy and bomb people."
So drawing the cartoon is ok? Before tht guy drew cartoons of prophet Muhamad(S.A), he was asked to draw cartoons of Jesus(S.A). he refused, fearing a backlash. Typical Christian double standards. Hypocrite.
And what of the clerics who fabricated the other cartoons? What of the cartoons they drew of the Jews? Look at danielpipes.org or faithfreedom.org. Your insults demonstrate the Islamic character.

Most of the protests around the world are peaceful. Some of them have turned violent because of some muslims who don't understand Islam. But unfortunately the media only shows the interesting pieces of news, leaves out the boring and peaceful ones
Actually, the media tries to tone down what happens. In either case, you do not see Christians doing that to Muslims, regardless if it is only a minority!

"The Christians did not fight,"
In beginning, no. but then they more than made up for it.
Then you are letting me argue that what later Christians did was un-Christian because they did not follow their traditions!

"and followed there teachings of the peaceful Jesus Christ"
And are still following. The best proof is the hostility which Christians show towards muslims here (online)
I'm not sensing any hostility with you, either. Show me in the Bible where Jesus was hostile or violent towards anyone. As I said before, when people do not follow Jesus, they are sinning. Thus, it is anti-Christ, and anti-Christian. No one is perfect but Christ. Do you know what a sin is?

"The Muslims fought wars, with Mecca"
Correction: the (pagan)Makkah fought wars with muslims
History tells us that it was not as one-sided as you think. When the Meccans wanted peace, the Muslims broke that peace. http://www.danielpipes.org/article/316

Tariq, you should not try and use the Qur'an for science. Where does it say in the Qur'an that e = mc2, oh wait, a Jew said that.

"Western Roman Empire Fell in 410, Islam introduced in 622 anno domini. Therefore after Roman Empire. Byzantium around until 1453."
Byzantium itself was a part of the roman empire.
For the most part.

Are Muslims treating everyone fairly in the world today?

The muslims attacked because the Byzantine empire was suppressing its own ppl. Also it had prepared an army against the muslims. Know anything about Abu Amir, the Christian monk?
I think that is an exaggeration and propaganda used by the Muslims to justify invasion. Of course the Byzantines had an army, they needed to protect their empire from all the barbarians as well as Muslims.

"In any case, the Muslims decided to conquer and extend even further into Europe."
They were called. By who???
Actually the jews and Christians oppressed in spain supported the muslims in keeping control of spain. They did that for more than 700 years before the rest of Europe succeed in regaining control.
Actually, when the Muslims got to comfortable in their power, they became more tyrannical.

You are two steps closer to creating your own myths. They were not expulsed by the Spanish inhabitants, but by armies from other parts of Europe.
And Jizya is not tyrannic.
Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand where from Spain. What are you thinking?

"You then admit that not paying the jizya would result in death, or loss of faith…"
No I didn't. You can't loose faith by force. Thats impossible.
"You tied the jizya to death and forced conversion."
Ok, so you can either pay the jizya and remain your religion, convert to Islam, or die in opposition. Logically, you are forced to pay the jizya or you otherwise would be killed or converted (a.k.a. lose one's faith). I thought Umar said there was no compulsion in religion? If this were true, then there would be no tax based on religion.

"Biased taxation is wrong"
So you must agree that the jizya is wrong. Does the "Christian" west tax the Muslims?

"Booty and looting…"
By looting, do u mean booty?
I mean looting of caravans in which Muhammad took part.

"is stealing no matter how you label it, and no matter the rationalization."
Booty is not stealing. Lets say we live in the same neighourhood. And I am the bully. Suppose I beat u up everyday. Wenever I see u I beat u. suppose Im the leader of a gang and I hate u so much tht I want to kill u and your frends. Suppose some of your frends are my slaves. So wot I do is I torture them. I torment them. I order them to lie on the ground and order 4 other slaves to lift a large boulder and place it on his chest. Also I steal money from u and ur ppl Supposee I commit many other crimes against u and ur frends for 13 years. And then u ‘migrate' to another neighbourhood. But I come after u. u have only 313 ppl to fight. I have 1000 plus my army is better equipped. Suppose I then attack u. but u win the war and I and my army run away leaving behind booty. What will you do?
(remember tht I have caused u a lot of financial damage in the war and u were already very poor. Also remember I used to steal money from u)
I believe the Muslims also insulted the Meccan gods and way of life. I know what the Muslims would do if the roles were reversed…

"Muslims could not exert their full influence in the Andulus and thus could not convert everyone by the sword. People there were devote Christians and would have all died rather than convert."
Are u a racist? Europeans are devote Christians but Africans are not. Is that what u are trying to say? Muslims never forced an1 to change religions in Africa or spain. Islam is spreading fast in east Africa(has made tremendous already), but no war was fought to increase muslims there. Spain was ruled for more than 700 years. Few ppl accepted Islam. If they were forced, then many non-muslims refusing to accept would have been killed. Yet even wen chritians regained control of spain, the muslims were minority. And don't forget wot the Christian armys did. They did not even allow muslims to give the azan.
No I am not a racist. The Spanish founded the Jesuit order in Catholicism, and extremely devout group dedicated to defending the church doctrines. This is some evidence. Also, they didn't convert when others did, and I think that is proof enough, unless you admit that it is because of what I said (not enough influence to force conversion).

"and they did not run away to Medina or fight wars of religion against the Romans."
Weak cowards
Yes, weaklings that would later colonize the entire world. Cowards because they did not run and chose persecution and civil disobedience. That makes a lot of sense.

"Old Testament
Do not commit murder. Deuteronomy 5:17 [1]
Do not commit murder. Exodus 20:12 [2]
[edit]
New Testament
...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)
murderers... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. (Matthew 5:21)
Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill (Romans 13:9)
Listing sins: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings (Galatians 5:21)
Listing sins: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:21)
Listing sins: murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars (Revelation 21:8)"

"Jesus corrected fallacies in the Old Testament that justified murder and things like stoning."
Fallacies? God does not use fallacies against his creations. Are u trying to say tht Jesus(pbuh) came to correct the old testament? Was the old testament corrupted? Or simply time-limited? Or did god change his mind?
""He who is without sin cast the first stone". Because none of us are without sin, none of us may kill, and because killing is a sin, it is impossible to do."
Riddles!! And u say Quran is like a horoscope.
No, Tariq. Is that really that hard to understand? You can persecute a sinner only if you are not one. I thought it was pretty straight forward, but I did hear the IQ in the Middle East was about 20 points lower than in the West.

In Islam a new convert has no sins. Wot about Christianity?
Christ took away the original sin. We always have the option of penance, or confession of sins, where our sins are forgiven. When our sins our forgiven you no longer have any sins. Converts must pass through the sacrament of reconciliation, or penance. Hence, new converts are forgiven and have no sins.

"As for your encyclopedia quotes, I am sure you will find some regarding the tryanny of Islam during their Jihads"
Learn the meaning of Jihad and you'll know tht ur statement was an oxymoron.
Of course I know what jihad means: struggle. To strive in the way of God. Muhammad spoke of two jihads, the greater being the moral and inner struggle for God, and the smaller being the holy war, or struggle against the infidels. Muhammad acknowledged a holy war. Jesus Christ did not. I urge you to look up the histories of the Islamic holy war, if you yourself do not know both meanings of the word jihad.

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