to joe

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Mar 5, 2006 at 05:12

"violence in the Bible: to demonstrate its evil, it is not advocated"

"Whoever curses his father or his mother shall be put to death"
Exodus 21:17(revised standard edition)

" The Quran is like a horoscope..."
False Analogy

"Modern embryology breaks it down into as many as 14 stages, although any number, depending on how specific or general, can be used. Embryos develope slowly over time, so there is no clear cut defining point that can be called a new stage."
Like i said before. tht is right. u can break it into 1000 stages. but according to dr Keith Moore. the Quran's way of classification is far superior to that of Modern science.

"Your Koran also said that sperm came from a rib in your back"
Quote the verse

"Serious scientific errors in the Bible, Where?"
did u read my previous comments about genesis?

"The Creation account follows the evolutionary darwinism."
it doesnt

"Your quote personifies the Sun as a person, or even as a God, prostrating itself before Allah."
my quote?

"Surely the Sun does not move,"
it does.

"but the earth moves around it"
i know

"Sounds like Egyptian animism"
nope

" The Earth moves around the Sun"
i know

" the Sun does not move"
it does

"The Muslims are so far ahead in science and technology today! Thats why the infidel Americans Abhram tank destroyed all the Iraqi tanks."
Muslims are not ahead in science because they dont study Quran and they dont follow it as they did in the early times of Islamic civilizations.

"Religious books are not about science, they are about God"
Thats right. but many verses are about gods creations. these verses can be tested using science, wether they are right or not. if they are wrong, then it cant be the word of god as god cannot make a mistake. but if the fact tht the verse mentions was not known during the time the book was revealed, then its a miracle.(eg. big bang in the Quran, Embryology, need of pain receptors to feel pain etc)

I say tht God is giving us his signs in the Quran thru science. and the fact that Quran(1400 years old) accurately describes so many things unknown even 50 years ago means, tht the Quran is not the work of a man.
my question to u:
If a man didnt write the Quran. Then who did?


"Tell all your Muslim friends, after you look it up, that Hitler was a pagan…"
Osama bin laden is a munafiq

"…He hated Christians…"
And Osama hates muslims.

"…and believed in the occult."
Yet Osama believes tht he is a muslim

"He also believed in Atlantis…"
And osama believes tht he will go to heaven

"…searched for his descendants in India!"
Osama searched for ways to commit sins against mankind.

"He persecuted Christians as well as Jews and everyone else."
Just like bin laden

"Please tell the rest of the Muslim world, becuase I have seen this a lot-Hitler and the Holocaust was not Christian."
But he was. Not only was he Christian, but it was his Christian upbringing and beliefs tht led to the Holocaust.
Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. In fact the Church felt he was JUST and "avenging for God" in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ


"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." Adolf Hitler; from John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#_note-0)

It was in Vienna that Hitler first became an active anti-Semite. This was a common stance among Austrians at the time, mixing traditional RELIGIOUS prejudice with recent racist theories.(emphasis added) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler)

"There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us* was the practice of their strange RELIGION. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.
Once, when passing through the inner City, I suddenly encountered a phenomenon in a long caftan and wearing black side-locks. My first thought was: Is this a Jew? They certainly did not have this appearance in Linz. I watched the man stealthily and cautiously but the longer I gazed at the strange countenance and examined it feature by feature, the more the question shaped itself in my brain: Is this a German?"
(Mein Kampf, vol. 1, chap. 2: "Years of study and suffering in Vienna")
*notice he says ‘us', not me

"The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie." Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

In the 1920s, Hitler's German Workers' Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a "Programme" with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a "positive" Christianity: "We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession..."

You can expect this from an atheist: -
"By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence." – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
(Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I AM FIGHTING FOR THE WORK OF THE LORD." –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitler was a Christian. And he had close relations with ‘christianity leaders':

"On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell
Buy theses books:
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670886939/freethinkers/103-5944751-6611051)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0306809311/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/103-5944751-6611051?n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0253214718/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-5944751-6611051?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155
when it comes to Hitler, Christians quickly label him as an atheist. But wen it comes to munafiqs like bin laden, Christians say that he is a true muslim and Islam is violent.
Typical Christian double standards. Lets make a deal. U say tht bin laden is not a muslim and his acts are unIslamic, and I'll agree tht Hitler was an atheist.
"Muhummad Killed"
He had to defend himself
"Jesus did not"
U believe he was god. right? Y didn't he just wave his hands and turn the ppl throwing stones at him into Christians? (http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/38425)
Jews were stoning him right? More reason for Hitler to do wot he did.
"Muhummad pranced away to Mecca and hid under two coats of armor."
Didn't know u were so ignorant about Islamic history
"The Christians were persecuted viciously by the Jews and Romans,"
They took their revenge later on
"and did not run or fight"
Cowards
". The Medinans fought and killed"
Brave ppl defend themselves
"and raped and pillaged"
Wake up
"Nero (look him up) made human lamp posts out of Christians and lined the roads with them. He tortured and killed an innumerable amount of them"
And the point is?
"Christians continued to practice peace and civil disobedience"
Eg suppressing jews and fellow Christians in Europe. And wen the muslims come to the rescue, ur pope starts a crusade. After u take back ur lands, the oppression and massacres starts again:-
Philip Schaff writes:
"The scenes of carnage which followed belong to the many dark pages of Jerusalem's history and showed how, in the quality of mercy, the crusading knight was far below the ideal of Christian perfection. The streets were choked with the bodies of the slain. The Jews were burnt with their synagogues…. As if to enhance the spectacle of pitiless barbarity, Saracen (i.e. Muslims) prisoners were forced to clear the streets of the dead bodies and blood to save the city from pestilence. "They wept and transported the dead bodies out of Jerusalem," is the heartless statement of Robert the Monk. … "They cut down with the sword," said William [archbishop] of Tyre, "every one whom they found in Jerusalem, and spared no one. The victors were covered with blood from head to foot." In the next breath, speaking of the devotion of the Crusaders, the archbishop adds, "It was a most affecting sight which filled the heart with holy joy to see the people tread the holy places in the fervor of an excellent devotion."
(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume V, Chapter 7)
In the words of The Archbishop of Tyre, F. Turner Writes:
"It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished."
[F. Turner, Beyond Geography (New York, 1980)]
Very peaceful Christians

"Someone draws a cartoon of the Muslims, they go crazy and bomb people."
So drawing the cartoon is ok? Before tht guy drew cartoons of prophet Muhamad(S.A), he was asked to draw cartoons of Jesus(S.A). he refused, fearing a backlash. Typical Christian double standards
Hypocrite.
Most of the protests around the world are peaceful. Some of them have turned violent because of some muslims who don't understand Islam. But unfortunately the media only shows the interesting pieces of news, leaves out the boring and peaceful ones
"The Christians did not fight,"
In beginning, no. but then they more than made up for it.
"and followed there teachings of the peaceful Jesus Christ"
And are still following. The best proof is the hostility which Christians show towards muslims here (online)
"The Muslims fought wars, with Mecca"
Correction: the (pagan)Makkah fought wars with muslims
"The Big Bang, I argue, is in the Bible, along with Darwinism,…"
Give the references to the verses.
From Genesis chapter 1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28: And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
Where does it say that man evolved from apes? It says man was created from gods image not a monkey.
"The Qur'an is like a horoscope, so general, that perhaps it can be interpretted to hold it."
Another example of Christian hypocrisy and double standards:-
Scientific error in the Quran? Yes.
Scientific miracle? Oh no no no!! it's a horoscope!!!
"Western Roman Empire Fell in 410, Islam introduced in 622 anno domini. Therefore after Roman Empire. Byzantium around until 1453."
Byzantium itself was a part of the roman empire.
"You admit in your next point that the Muslims attacked before the Byzantines attacked."
I never said they didn't. Your first comment about crusades was titled: "Tariq, are you serious? Everything you said was wrong":-
"The Crusade was defensive, to protect the Christians and its influence in the area--ONLY after the Muslims had attacked."
"Also, if it was so defensive, why did the caliphate continue the jihad into Europe, across Africa, etc. It was not defensive."
( http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/35687)
I never said it was defensive. Read my comments to lisa:
Lisa:"How was islam in danger when muslims invaded Constintine empire, Roman Empire, etc?"
Tariq: It WASNT. Islam also allows us to fight for the rights of OTHETS(if they are oppressed, even if they are NON-muslims)
(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/35563)
Please read my comments before replying back.
I used Byzantine and roman empire interchangeably.
The muslims attacked because the Byzantine empire was suppressing its own ppl. Also it had prepared an army against the muslims. Know anything about Abu Amir, the Christian monk?
"In any case, the Muslims decided to conquer and extend even further into Europe."
They were called
"Why did the Europeans fight so hard to get them out then? Because they were not wanted"
"But why did the altruist Muslims overstay their welcome, as demonstrated by their expulsion in 1492?"
Actually the jews and Christians oppressed in spain supported the muslims in keeping control of spain. They did that for more than 700 years before the rest of Europe succeed in regaining control.
"They obviously did something wrong."
Obviously?
"Perhaps the jizya was just as tryrannical as the employs of the Visigoths."
Perhaps?
You are two steps closer to creating your own myths. They were not expulsed by the Spanish inhabitants, but by armies from other parts of Europe.
And Jizya is not tyrannic.
"You then admit that not paying the jizya would result in death, or loss of faith…"
No I didn't. You can't loose faith by force. Thats impossible.
"You tied the jizya to death and forced conversion."
Send me the link of tht comment
"Biased taxation is wrong"
I know
"and only demostrated Islamic bigotry, which you enjoy"
Read my previous comments about jizya
"Booty and looting…"
By looting, do u mean booty?
"is stealing no matter how you label it, and no matter the rationalization."
Booty is not stealing. Lets say we live in the same neighourhood. And I am the bully. Suppose I beat u up everyday. Wenever I see u I beat u. suppose Im the leader of a gang and I hate u so much tht I want to kill u and your frends. Suppose some of your frends are my slaves. So wot I do is I torture them. I torment them. I order them to lie on the ground and order 4 other slaves to lift a large boulder and place it on his chest. Also I steal money from u and ur ppl Supposee I commit many other crimes against u and ur frends for 13 years. And then u ‘migrate' to another neighbourhood. But I come after u. u have only 313 ppl to fight. I have 1000 plus my army is better equipped. Suppose I then attack u. but u win the war and I and my army run away leaving behind booty. What will you do?
(remember tht I have caused u a lot of financial damage in the war and u were already very poor. Also remember I used to steal money from u)
"Muslims could not exert their full influence in the Andulus and thus could not convert everyone by the sword. People there were devote Christians and would have all died rather than convert."
Are u a racist? Europeans are devote Christians but Africans are not. Is that what u are trying to say? Muslims never forced an1 to change religions in Africa or spain. Islam is spreading fast in east Africa(has made tremendous already), but no war was fought to increase muslims there. Spain was ruled for more than 700 years. Few ppl accepted Islam. If they were forced, then many non-muslims refusing to accept would have been killed. Yet even wen chritians regained control of spain, the muslims were minority. And don't forget wot the Christian armys did. They did not even allow muslims to give the azan.
"Economically, it would not be feasible or desirable."
700 years is enough time to make it feasible
"and they did not run away to Medina or fight wars of religion against the Romans."
Weak cowards
"Old Testament
Do not commit murder. Deuteronomy 5:17 [1]
Do not commit murder. Exodus 20:12 [2]
[edit]
New Testament
...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)
murderers... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. (Matthew 5:21)
Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill (Romans 13:9)
Listing sins: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings (Galatians 5:21)
Listing sins: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Revelation 9:21)
Listing sins: murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars (Revelation 21:8)"
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a CAPITAL OFFENSE. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
"Jesus corrected fallacies in the Old Testament that justified murder and things like stoning."
Fallacies? God does not use fallacies against his creations. Are u trying to say tht Jesus(pbuh) came to correct the old testament? Was the old testament corrupted? Or simply time-limited? Or did god change his mind?
""He who is without sin cast the first stone". Because none of us are without sin, none of us may kill, and because killing is a sin, it is impossible to do."
Riddles!! And u say Quran is like a horoscope.
In Islam a new convert has no sins. Wot about Christianity?
"As for your encyclopedia quotes, I am sure you will find some regarding the tryanny of Islam during their Jihads"
Learn the meaning of Jihad and you'll know tht ur statement was an oxymoron.
"Actually just look at the front page of the newspaper and you will see some terrorism."
State sponsored terrorism against Palestine, Iraq, Chechnya and other Muslim countries.

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