to ianus

Submitted by tariq (United Arab Emirates), Feb 5, 2006 at 07:31

Same thing again? Only lies and questions.little concrete argument. I wont reply to all your comments. i'll reply only to those which have concrete argument in them. the rest like lies,and opinions, i'll ignore.

Our 'dialogue' started because you believed tht there are two types of muslims: radical and moderates and i disagreed. I said tht the ppl whom you call the moderates are the true muslims and have told you many times to quote a verse from the Quran to prove me wrong. And you did, but i proved tht you only have misconceptions and misunderstandings about Islam. So I suggest tht you come back to the topic and prove from a verse of the Quran showing tht Islam wants muslims to forcibly convert others or kill them.

Dont write your OPINIONS like:
"How can "the last Book of Allah", the "eternal book," "the eternal miracle", the "imperishable tablet," the "Mother of the Book, the "universal book", "all the guidance that humanity needs" , "the book addressing all peoples in the world irrespective of where they live or lived , valid for all times from the very beginning of the universe untli after the Day of Judgement "- to name just a few current description of the Heavenly Quran - be grossly and sacrilegeously reduced to "when and why the verses were revealed, and what verses come before and after that verse, in other words, qouting the Quran out of Context"? "

Its only your opinion that a book is ‘reduced' by quoting it in context.
Everybook has to be quoted in context. otherwise you are deceiving others. Quoting in context does not 'reduce' a book in any way. I was happy to see that in your last comment you did have some arguments against me, in addition to unrelated comments like:
"Really? What sect of Islam do you belong to?"

First concrete argument:

Tariq : It is a unique piece of literature with a lot of meaning in it.

Ianus : "From the literary point of view, the Quran has little merit. Declamation, repetition, puerility, a lack of logic and coherence strike the unprepared reader at every turn. It is humiliating to the human intellect to think that this mediocre literature has been the subject of innumerable commentaries, and that millions of men are still wasting time absorbing it." Salomon Reinch , Orpheus, Histoire générale de réligions , Paris 1909 , p.241-242

My answer:-

"The essential and definite element of my conversion to Islam was the Qur'an. I began to study it before my conversion with the critical spirit of a Western intellectual... There are certain verses of this book, the Qur'an, revealed more than thirteen centuries ago, which teach exactly the same notions as the most modern scientific researches do. This definitely converted me." (Ali Selman Benoist, France, Doctor of Medicine)

"I have read the Sacred Scriptures of every religion; nowhere have I found what I encountered in Islam: perfection. The Holy Qur'an, compared to any other scripture I have read, is like the Sun compared to that of a match. I firmly believe that anybody who reads the Word of Allah with a mind that is not completely closed to Truth, will become a Muslim." (Saifuddin Dirk Walter Mosig)

"It (Islam) replaced monkishness by manliness. It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind, and recognition of the fundamental facts of human nature." --Canon Taylor, Paper read before the Church Congress at Walverhamton, Oct. 7, 1887; Quoted by Arnoud in THE PREACHING OF ISLAM, pp. 71-72.

"If a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness." George Bernard Shaw "

Professor Yushudi Kusan: Director of the Tokyo Observatory,
"I can say, I am very mush impressed by finding true astronomical facts in the Qur'aan"

George W. Bush:

"It's [the Qur'an is] a very thoughtful gift."

On 26 September 2001, President George W. Bush held a substantive meeting with American Muslim leaders, and said that "the teachings of Islam are the teachings of peace and good." During this meeting, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), presented a copy of the Holy Qur'an to President Bush. During a brief press conference after the meeting, the President expressed his pleasure saying:

And I want to thank you very much for the-the gift you gave me, Imam, the Koran. It's a very thoughtful gift. I say, "Thank you very much for the gift." He said, "It's the best gift I could give you, Mr. President." I appreciate that very much.

On September 17, 2001, President Bush visited the Washington Islam Center mosque, one of the oldest in the United States. In his speech, he emphasized that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorist attacks of 9/11 have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam or the sincere Muslims of the world, all of whom deplore terrorism. Bush stated that those who inflict harm on innocent and civilian Muslims are just as in the wrong as those who carry out terrorist attacks. At this crowded meeting, covered live by a large number of domestic and international television stations, President Bush read the following verse from the Qur'an:

"In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule." (Qur'an, 30:10)
(http://www.ama-nj.org/bush_meeting.html)

Want me to go on?
I have saved the best for the last:-
Prof. (Dr.) Keith Moore, Professor of Embryology and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at the University of Toronto, in Canada is one of the highest authorities in the field of Embryology. After examining nearly 80 Quranic verses and Hadiths, Dr. Moore said that most of the information concerning embryology mentioned in the Qur'an and the undisputed Hadith is in perfect conformity with modern discoveries in the field of embryology and does not conflict with them in any way. He added that there were a few verses however, on whose scientific accuracy he could not comment. He could not say whether the statements were true or false, since he was himself unaware of the information contained therein. There was also no mention of this information in modern writings and studies on embryology.
One such verse is:-
"Proclaim! (or Read!)
In the name of thy Lord
and Cherisher, Who created –
Created man, out of a (mere)
clot of congealed blood."
(96:1-2)

The Arabic word alaq, besides meaning a congealed clot of blood, also means something that clings, a leech-like substance. Dr. Keith Moore had no knowledge whether an embryo in the initial stages appears like a leech. To check this out he studied the initial stage of the
embryo under a very powerful microscope and compared what he observed with the diagram of a
leech. He was astonished at the striking resemblance between the two!
After many other discoveries he said, ""If I was asked these questions thirty years ago, I would not have been able to answer half of them for lack of scientific information".
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Dr. Moore said, "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God or Allah"
Dr. Keith Moore had earlier authored the book, ‘The Developing Human'. After acquiring new knowledge from the Qur'an, he wrote, in 1982, the 3rd edition of the same book, ‘The Developing Human'. The book was the recipient of an award for the best medical book written by a single author. This book has been translated into several major languages of the world and is used as a textbook of embryology in the first year of medical studies.
(Taken from the book titled:- Quran and Modern science-Compatible or Incompatible?)

More on this:-
Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world's most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific
reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate
Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam,
Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: "It has been a great pleasure
for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human
development. It is clear to me that these statements must have
come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge
was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves
to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God."2
Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question:
"Does this mean that you believe that the Qur'an is the word
of God?" He replied: "I find no difficulty in accepting this."3
During one conference, Professor Moore stated: "....Because
the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous
process of change during development, it is proposed that a
new system of classification could be developed using the terms
mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah (what Muhammad _ said,
did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive,
and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The
intensive studies of the Qur'an and hadeeth (reliably transmitted
reports by the Prophet Muhammad's _ companions of what he
said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a
system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was
recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the
founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos
developed in stages from his studies of hen's eggs in the fourth
century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As
far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known
about the staging and classification of human embryos until the
twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human
embryo in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in
the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these
descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not
have known such details because he was an illiterate man with
absolutely no scientific training

Sources:
(1) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed
(2) The source of Keith Moore's comment is This is the Truth (videotape). Visit
www.islam-guide.com/truth for a copy of this videotape or to view
the video clips of Professor Keith Moore's comments online.

Remember Prof. Tejatat Tejasen from my previous comment? the above link has his video

Second argument(this time not so concrete, only a misunderstanding of my comments by you):-
ianus:If a Muslim disagrees on something with a kaffir, the Muslim must be ALWAYS right and the kaffir is ALWAYS wrong. This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"

Tariq:"You said tht in disagreement a muslim is right and non-muslim wrong because Allah is an enemy to non-muslims. LOL. Is tht a joke?"

Ianus:Ianus : Allah isn't the enemy of the kaffirs then! … Ha!...Ha!...Ha! Allah also is a joker!...All His Quran was a giant joke and the Muslims were duped!...Thank you Allah , the Joking! … I understand your jokes ! The Muslims don't! …

Heres my previous answer:
heres your mistranslation:
"This is Allah's will because Allah is the enemy of the kaffirs (2.98)"
Its not actually a mistranslation, its more of a misrepresentation. because the verse 98 of chpter 2 says:
"Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith"
read the first part carefully, Allah is not the enemy of kaffirs, he is the enemy of whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles

And i want to add: You believe tht muslims think tht they are always right. thts not true. we can be wrong. you justify belief by saying tht God is the enemy to those who are enemy of his messenger. Show me the logic will you? wot does being an enemy has anything to do with muslims opinion? How old are you? I hope you are not mature yet, because your comments are not very mature.

Third argument:
My reference if you happen to care about German is below . I don't have at present the book where I read about it :

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salam

What is yours? "

Tariq : Mine is a translated copy of Holy Quran by Yousuf Ali

Ianus : Name all the 53 passages with "salam"!

My reply:
it doesn't really matter. Let me explain. You said:" The word "salam"(as 'peace', 'greeting') is used 42 times in the Quran without any connection with Islam"(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32268)

My reply was:"The salam as peace has been used in the Quran 53 times. ALL OF THEM HAVE A CONNECTION TO ISLAM AS QURAN IS THE PRIMARY SOURCE FOR ISLAM "(http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/32410)

Can you provide a refutation based on facts not opinions or topic changing questions?

Answer to a question:
Tariq : We dont use the word 'sam' we use salam.

Ianus : But what if a Jew happens to greet you?
Answer: we still use salam for greeting.

Fourth argument:
Tariq : Osama does not follow the Quran. he like many other muslims are doing against the Islamic teachings

Ianus : They say exactly the opposite

Prove me wrong. Cite a verse from the Quran which allows Wot osama and his ppl do: prevent education, kill innocent muslims and non-muslims etc.

Another misunderstanding:
Ianus : How could a kaffir's comment have meaning or importance?
Muhammed started looting the caravans even during Ramadan, not the Meccans…He was the attacker at first… "
Ianus : What did the Meccans want in Medina ? It had become a base of gangsters that regularly attacked the caravans going to Syria. their whole trade was disrupted by the robbers

Muhammad(pbuh) did not start looting caravans. These are just stories and lies made up during the crusades. The first time muslims had to do anything with caravans was when a pagan trader by the name of abu sufiyan was travelling from Syria to Makkah. Muslims got this information and as precautionary measures, gathered an army of nearly 1000 ppl and went outside madina. They thought that the caravan was a trick. That with the trading caravan, the Quraish army is also travelling and would launch a surprise attack in madina.When abu sufiyan came to know tht a muslim army has gathered outside madina, he thought tht he was in danger and sent messengers ahead of him(to makkah) requesting military help to avoid any attack from the muslims. And the Quraish gathered an army 1000 men or a bit more (cant remember the exact number but it was a at least 1000) and they started towards Madina. They were on their way when they received more of abu sufiyans messengers saying that abu sufiyan has passed from the line of madina without event. But the Pagans saw this as a good excuse to attack Madina.(as they had previously failed many times in their attempt to kill the prophet) and they proceeded towards Badr, where the muslims were now camping. By this time the muslim army had only 300 men, the rest (hypocrites) had abandoned them from the fear of Quraishi military might.
The two armies met in Badr where a battle was fought, and even though the muslims were severly under equipped and few in number, they still won by a big margin.

As you are so ignorant about Islam, you are probably wondering wot the pagans had against prophet Muhammad (PBUH). When he started preaching in makkah, the pagans were angry. because Islam gave equal rights to women and blacks(women before Islam were like born slaves, and many ppl buried their daughters alive if they already had one. also wen a pagan died, his son INHERITED his mother!)
Another reason is tht the Quraish had two main ways of earning (apart from trade)
1) by selling idols
2) pagans from other parts of arabia used to come to makkah for pilgrimage to the idols, and leave valuable for them. these valuables were then kept by the Quraish leaders or sold.

After Muhammad(pbuh) started preaching he got many requests from the pagans to stop. but he didnt. Soon those requests turned to threats and threats turned to torture,abuse, and torment. the muslims tolerated the torture and some even hid the fact that they have converted. This happened for nearly 13 years. During this time, many ppl form madina had converted to Islam.(they learned about Islam when, as pagans, they came for pilgrimage to makkah).
These ppl invited the Prophet and his followers to their city. the ppl of madian were called Ansars and the migraters were called Muhajirs.
the Muhajirs were poor.(all their property and belongings were confiscated by the pagans) but when they reached medina, the ansars shared with them half of everything they had. They even allowed the Muhajirs to live in their houses till the muhajirs have earned enough to settle down themselves.

Another misunderstanding:
"Ianus : Without any fear from the Muslims?...That's impossible…The Muslims themselves live in a constant fear of each other , of being accused of heresy , of an evil eye, of sympathising with kaffirs…And me! … I prefer to live in hell , it's much safer , than in a Muslim city!"

You are confusing the past Islamic practices (equal rights to non-muslims) with the presents hypocrites practices (eg osama killing innocent muslims and non-muslims)

Fifth argument:
Ianus: 4.89 "...But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (Yousuf Ali - your favourite translator )

heres a coment i read elsewhere on this website:
"the large number of muslim names exposing the very soft underbelly of islam which you are trying to hide indicates that many thinking muslims speak out behind the safety of internet.These opinions expressed openly in a sharia based country will land them in a prison under a death penalty.Mohammed punished his critics by having them asassinated and badmouthing them all over quran, calling them hippocrites and sanctioning their asassinations (4.89)"

Heres the answer:
In Chapter verse 89 of the Quran, God is referring to those ppl who call themselves muslims but are planning AGAINST the Holy Prophet Muhammda (PBUH). they want him and his followers dead and want to distrupt the peace in Madina.(these are the hypocrites)
Therefore Allah says in Chapter number 4 Verse 89:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But IF they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- "

Tell me one thing, how can you make friends with ppl bent on killing you? Wot do u do if see them? kill them before they can kill you

And here's verse 4:90 right after verse 4:89:
"Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). "

So the Quran instructs the muslims to kill the Hypocrites who would otherwise kill them, unless they agree not to fight and agree to live in PEACE. If they do live in peace, then it is FORBIDDEN for muslims to fight them.
.
More Questions and opinions of yours. no real arguments:
Tariq : "Tell me one thing Ianus. Is paying tax evil? "
Ianus : No,

Tariq : so you agree with me? i dont think so. i think i qouted you out of context!

Ianus : Why? Am I a quran or a post-Islamic prophet?

"No, especially if the only option left for me is to have my throat cut or head smashed…'
In Islams case this is not an option. Islam gives the right to non-muslims to keep their faith in their religion(it you think im wrong, again prove it by quoting a verse from the Holy Quran.)
And if I qutoted you out of context, this does not make you a prophet. I was only trying to show you tht by quoting out of context you can completely change the meaning.

"By the way, I am the kaffir from the "protected people".You are my Muslim master"

Tariq : is bush a master of all americans?

Ianus : Do they pay jizya already?

Americans pay tax.


sixth argument:

Ianus : What science and accuracy are you talking about? You just said "Quran is a book of SIGNS and not Science"and "The Quran is not an encyclopedia."…And now you praise its
"scientific accuracy" ? ..

My reply:
A book of science speaks directly and only on science. Also it gets outdated. A book of signs can have signs about science as well as instructions of how to live a life. And the Quran is not teaching science, but still some statements speak about nature, space etc which fall in the topic of science as well Quranic signs.

seventh argument:
1.1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful".

Who wrote it , Allah? Is Allah talikng about himself "In the name of me , Allah…?"
my reply:
Quran means recitation.. Muslims recite the Quran in the name of Allah. therefore the first verse in the Quran says in the name of Allah.

Eight Argument(a good this time):-
"7.54) Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days …
Yes, six days! "

The Arabic world translated as days is 'Ayyam'
'Ayyam' means day. it also means term, or a period of time.
Saying that the universe was created in 6 periods is no scientific error (unlike the bible. Read genesis chapter 1 and 2).

Ninth argument:
"41.9) Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? (2)
(41.10) He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, (4)
(41.12) So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days. (2)

2+4+2=8"
My reply:
You dont necessarily have to add them. They may be in common.Yawm (from root word ayam) means a day or a period of time. Therefore saying that the universe was created in six unspecified periods of time does not contradict the implication that the universe was created in 8 unspecified periods of time (time period differs). Besides as I have said before, they may be in common (2 of the Ayyams could have been mentioned twice)

In the rest of your comment you only had topic changing questions, or opinions, no facts against me. You still told me how a person 1400 years ago could have known that you need pain receptors to feel pain.

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