To Hamri Al Assad: Welcome back Moderate Muslim. Let's continue where you left off.(Correction)

Submitted by Plato (India), Sep 15, 2007 at 22:38

Hello Hamri/MM,

>>Yeah let me straighten this out, I wasnt very clear and that my fault. I posted on the other article "How the West could lose" under the name Moderate Muslim. Remember? Thought so. Anyway, we have been over this again and again.<<

Moderate Muslim I did not know you had morphed yourself into Hamri Al Assad. I recollect you just faded away like the Cheshire cat without responding after some time. If I remember right you had no answers to the Koran allowing men to beat up women, Aysha's age at marriage, or the truly horrifying conditions under which the prophet forced himself upon one of the Mothers of Believers, Safiya. Now you come and claim that you have answered them. And you think wrong. You never bothered to answer my queries.

>>I don't thrust any thing on you. Believe what you want. If you want to be a Jew, by all means, go ahead. If you want to be an atheist, thats your choice. Not mine. If you want to learn about Islam, I would be happy to help. <<

I want to take you up on your offer to teach me Islam. Demonstrate to me that someone who calls himself Allah spoke through Gabriel to Mohammed and that what He told him are eternal truths easily understood by all mankind.

>>My job is not to make you a Muslim, and this is clearly explained in the Quran Surah Al Baqarah:<<

If it is not your job to make me a Muslim, then you are not a good Muslim as you are going against your prophet's Sunnah. The whole of the Prophets life was about making believers out of unbelievers, through peaceful preaching when he was powerless in Mecca to forced conversion when he acquired power in Medina. Mohammed preached, and preached intrusively often threatening violence to make people submit to Islam. Do you want me give you evidence from the Koran, the Hadith and the sira?

>>2:256 "There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. "<<

Put 2:256 against the verses I have quoted below.

3:85 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

61:9YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

In 3:85 Allah says those who do not submit to Him are among the lost (denizens of Hell).

In 61:9 Allah says even if Pagans detest Islam the prophet should proclaim it over other religions (Pickthal translates it conquer and Shakir translates overcome)

>>also..

17:53, 54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs).<<

Then why does Allah say this:
2:161YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

Can you describe 2:161 as kindly speech??

>>39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.<<

If Allah Himself has sent down the Book in right form can there be any dispute over it? But Allah Himself admits disputes about His book in 40:35 Those who wrangle concerning….. And 42:16 And those who argue concerning Allah…..

You also find that Allah Himself has set the stage for such disputes when He says some verses are allegorical and only He knows which ones they are 3:007: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. ….

>>Just so you don't have to take my word for it. But you'll probably just quote another ayat which tells me I'm wrong and then I'll refute it, but whatever.<<

Let us see how you refute this aya: 3:85 .

With another aya? That will just demonstrate the incoherence of the Koran despite repeatedly claiming it is a clear book without any doubt.

>>So just so were clear, I agree with you on many things, I do not however believe that Muslims are any worse as people than other people on the whole. <<

I agree. Muslims are no worse and also NO BETTER than other people. Which is something some Muslims don't seem to understand. The fault lies not in Muslims but in the faith they were born into, for Islam curses, abuses and condemns to eternal damnation all who do not believe in Allah and his apostle. Read 3:85 and 2:161 once more.

>>However, there are some Muslims who are not reading the above ayats or ignoring them, and Muslims as a whole need to be more educated in Quranic studies and the like before they go proclaiming and issues fatwa's.<<

You are trying to judge your fellow Muslims. Is it not possible that they understand the Koran's true message? They perhaps know that those ayat were superseded and abrogated by later ayat , for instance Surah 9.

>>If one is to give advice, they need to be extremely sure that they know what they are talking about and that it is true, and that is a very big problem in the Arab world.<<

Who but the Arabs can be sure that what they are talking about is true. They can read the Koran in the original. What meaning will stare them in the face when they read 3:85? Or 4:46 …But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief…Or 2:88, 2:89?? So the problem is not that the Arabs have got their faith wrong, the problem is that they have got it right.

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