To Aamir Ali: Islam conjures up thousands of words and images.

Submitted by Plato (India), Sep 17, 2007 at 22:44

>>I really appreciate your effort of gathering so much material to counter a few of my truths...

The truth dont need tons of stories..a word worth millions...Islam is all about that..<<

Thank you for your appreciation. Yes I do make an effort to go into details. Most words do not conjure up millions of other words but Islam is an exception. It does conjure up not just words but images and they are not pretty words or pictures. I examine the ‘few truths' you throw my way thoroughly.

>>When you start quoting and misquoting you fail to realize that my religion has nothing to hide..infact all of you are doing more research on Islam than before..<<

At least tell your readers what I have misquoted. Do you know the meaning of misquote? If your religion has nothing to hide why are internet sites critical of Islam banned. Why is there so much censorship in Muslim countries especially about Islamic subjects. Saudi Arabia does not even allow the bible in. Why are missionaries of other religions persecuted.

What are Muslim countries scared of if there is nothing to hide in Islam??? How do you explain the fact that non-Muslim countries are not afraid of a free media, they allow their own citizens and others to criticize their political system, their culture, their religion whereas Islamic governments fear and silence criticism. Let us hear it from you Mr. Aamir Ali.

And you are right we are doing more research on Islam and discovering that Islam has a lot to hide and we are trying to bring it out into the open. For instance the hate verses in the Koran (do you want me to quote or misquote them to you all over again?). We are trying to bring into the open what the Prophet did. His unprovoked raids, wars, his assassination of critics, and his less than exemplary personal life. (Do you want me to ‘misquote' his activities all over again?)

>>but i feel that you are afraid of the direct and straight forward approach of Quran<<

Yes we are afraid of the direct straight forward approach of the Koran. 9:111 is very direct in telling Muslims that they must go kill and get killed for Islam for which service to Allah they are assured of a place in paradise. They are told in 9:29 to conquer the people of the book and make them pay a humiliation tax. Afraid of Islam? You bet we are.

>>...if it is accepted all religion-businesses will be closed...<<

Rightly spoken again Aamir ali. Once you accept what the Koran wants all religions will, as you nicely put it, be "closed". For after all the Koran tells you in 3:85 that no religion except Islam is acceptable to the mighty Allah. How can any religion remain "open" for business if the Koran is accepted? You never cease to amaze with your intelligent observations.

>>If you simply read Surah Baqra (2)...with proper meanings you will get all answers for what is happening around us.<<

If I have to look at Surah 2 with proper meaning, it being the longest one, will take me days and extend to several parts not just three. But, however, since you have suggested reading it, I did again, though this would be about the fourth time I am reading it. This Surah, like any other, jumps around from topic to topic (the usual self-adulation aya after aya, mixed with marital laws, banning of usury, castigating the Jews for not accepting him as their latest prophet, call for Muslims not to abhor war even if they dislike it, asking Muslims to contribute generously to the cause of Allah and so on ad nauseum).

Interestingly some of the major problems with Islam crop up in the surah:

1. Warning unbelievers is useless since Allah Himself has misguided them! (6,7)

2. Abusive nature of some verses, unbelievers called deaf, dumb and blind. (18)

3. The inane challenge to produce a surah like the Koran, and then immediately announcing that it cannot be done. (23, 24)

4. His granting special favours to the Jews and their breaking of the covenant they had with Him.(47, 83, 84) , roundly cursing them for their unbelief (89, 161), accusing them of slaying prophets without specifying which ones (91). It could not have been Jesus as the Koran claims Allah hoodwinked the killers.

5. Allah despising Jews and calling them apes. (65)

6. Allah gives himself the luxury of abrogating his own previous poor revelations for better ones. (106).

7. The standard accusation that Muslims have then and now against unbelievers, that they on account of envy deny the truth that is clearly obvious to them. (109)

8. Allah tells Mohammed to be indulgent with the unbelievers for now with the veiled threat - until Allah give command'. (106). What command did the prophet have to wait for Aamir? 9:111 comes to mind.

9. Allah contradicts Himself. In 136, 285 He says there is no distinction between the prophets but in 253, Allah says He has caused some to excel others while some He exalts in degree.

10. Accuses Jews of concealing the truth in several places without specifying what this great truth is (probably the coming of Mohammed?). 42, 99, 140, 146, 159, 174, 213,

11. Allah ordains Safa and Marwan as his symbols (what is the difference with idols?) (158)

12. Forefathers of Jews called unintelligent, i.e. stupid. (170)

13. War is ordained for Muslims even if they dislike it, and even if it be in the sacred months. (216, 217)

14. Menstruation is called and illness which makes them polluted and don't go near them until they are clean. (222)

15. Utter confusion in 253 when Allah says He willed those who followed his prophets to fight one another though he gave them clear proofs. (The translation is ‘if Allah had willed,…..would not have fought one another after clear proofs had come to them – which means the same thing).

16. Allah hammers home the point that He is the one responsible for people fighting one another by repeating ‘And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one another; but Allah doeth what He will. (253 , Pickthal). Is this the being you call the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent? Does he not sound more like somebody bent on creating mischief and dissension on earth??

17. The quote so beloved of Muslims, ‘There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error….' Occurs in this surah. Why should there be compulsion when Allah claims that He misguides unbelievers and that He does as He wills. If there is any compulsion it is Allah who is responsible. (6, 7, 253)

18. 285 is also a nice example of pronoun confusion which indicates that Mohammed is the real author of the Koran. ‘..We make no distinction between any of His messengers –‘ Can a clear book written by Allah say His after using We when he should have used Our? Isn't this Mohammed saying he does not distinguish between His (Allah's) messengers?

>>(surah baqara is) All about Jews, Christians and Idol worshippers ..Quran is so straight forward it put lid on all confusions that is around us..<<

Aamir Ali the Koran is straightforward in attacking and accusing so-called unbelievers of all sorts of transgressions. But will you please clear the confusion in my mind about this Surah that I have set out numbered 1 to 17 above.

Denying simple fact always create complications..if you dont follow doctors prescription doctor cannot be blamed for your condition..The same applies to muslims who donot follow true islam and non believers of Islam...

Aamir Ali can you point us in the direction on the planet (apart from yourself of course) where that endangered species the ‘true Muslim' lives.

The prescriptions found in the Koran in verses like 9:111 will surely help cure my condition of unbelief as surely as putting a sick horse out of its misery.

>>I was once wondering why the non believers will go to hell when they dont get chance to listen to the message of Allah..

But now i realize that you are well aware of the message and in fact in some cases did more study on Islam than us..but one cannot help if someone closes eyes on real facts...<<

Yes Aamir Ali Surah baqara is the chapter that clears up all confusion about why non believers go to hell despite having the opportunity to listen to the message of Allah. The answers are to be found in what I have set out in 1 to 17. And you hit the nail on the head when you say ‘but one cannot help if someone closes eyes on real facts..' Baqara tells you clearly that ‘someone' is made to close his eyes by Allah Himself. Read 6, 7 and 253 a little more carefully.

>>Shirk...connecting Allah with his creations..like sons, daughters etc...
Kufr...denying existence of Allah as one and only

are two basic crimes which will not be pardoned on the day of judgement...This is what Quran says,.,.,<<

Apart from the Koran stating that shirk is a humongously terrible crime, which the rest of humanity finds ridiculous, can you give any other reason for considering this such a great offence?

>>On this platform I can heard voices of demands for removing chapters from Quran etc...thats really the same attitude which turned the prior scriptures to the present state..now i am begining to realize what happened to earlier books of Allah......<<

What use are the verses whose meanings are dependent on context. The context in which those verses were revealed is no more. Won't the Koran sound much better without verses like 9:111, 9:29,

What use are verses giving instructions to the Prophet's wives and to the Prophet about his wives? Or to his companions about how to behave near him?

>> When we start modifying the real script from God on the basis of our wish and will then the result will be like books of Jews and Christians.....<<

Similar to fake medicine which is unable to cure or releif the patient.<<.

Aamir Ali when the diacritical marks were put into the Koran was that not a modification of the Koran. Korans published from different places, as has been pointed out by dhimmi no more have differences. Apparently the Lebanses Muslim council has put out a Koran which does not have some of the verses in which Allah curses unbelievers. The Shia Koran too apparently has some differences. Rashad khalifa has introduced some changes into his version of the Koran. Which of these Korans is fake medicine the Muslims are swallowing?

>>Thanks to Allah Quran is still safe and will be for ever...<<

You have probably given thanks too early. Allah was unable to keep his words safe in the torah and bible despite His claim that His words cannot be changed. How can you believe Allah after He allowed his old words to be mangled by pigs and apes? Or what guarantee have you after Allah says in the Koran that He is capable of abrogating His revelation (16:101, 2:106). Allah has all the right. You cannot take away that right.

>>Islam was definetly suppressed for centuries sometimes under Soviet red curtain..and sometimes under bloody serbians..but this has changed the way Muslim think about west..<<

For centuries?? Soviets lasted about 70 years and the Muslims survived pretty well if you look at what the Chechens are up to. What about suppression AND massacre of Buddhists and Hindus which lasted more a thousand years?? Is not Islam answerable for that? What about the Turks oppressing and massacring Armenians.

the United nations seems united nations against Islam...thats why thousands of muslims were brutally massacred in Serbia inside UN safe heavens

>>..and your India did well to supress Kashmiris...can anyone deny that????<<

Let us admit for a minute that Indians are oppressing Kashmiris. Would you admit that Pakistan (Punjabi) is oppressing Balochistan and Mohajirs?

And what about the Muslims in the rest of India? How many world famous figures can you claim from among the Muslims of Pakistan. You had the Nobel Laureate Abdus Salam, but he did not live in Pakistan and you don't consider him a Muslim.

I am sure you can name the Muslims of India who are well known all over the world. Let me jog your memory. Azim Premji the richest Muslim in the world by his own hard work not from the Allah-given petro-dollars stolen from their rightful owners. The best known Muslim painters in the world, M.F. Hussain, Syed Raza. The best known Muslim female sports figure, Sania Mirza, the best known English language author with Muslim parentage, Salman Rushdi, film stars admired from Arab countries to Russia to Malaysia, the Khans, a respected world figure and rocket engineer, Abdul Kalam. Now give us some Muslim figures to compare with these from Pakistan or Bangladesh. The three countries started off on an equal footing.

I have a feeling if you do a count you will find that more Muslims have been killed by Muslims in Pakistan than Muslims by Hindus in India.

If Muslims in India are oppressed why don't you see Muslims migrating out of India, either to your country or to Bangladesh. The Indian Muslim population is growing at a rate faster than the Hindu rate. What we see is the reverse. Muslims desperately trying to reach India from Bangladesh is common knowledge. And there are quite a few from Pakistan who would like to jump the fence into India, especially the Hindus and Christians.

I sometimes think that the Kashmiris should get a taste of what lies across the border in your country by allowing them their wish. I suspect they will soon plead to be let back in.

>>Muslims are going through a very difficult but a testing phase..I must say that tolerance and patience is the utmost need of today..there is no justification of suicide bombing...or killing innocents...Islam will bounce back again we are confident...the difficult period will be over...Insha Alalh...because once we overcome our faults and mistakes....Muslims will be ruling the world again..not with people like Usama or Sadam...but with intelligent and literate muslims..This is what world is afraid of.<<

Inshallah, I hope the day when Muslims overcome their faults and mistakes comes soon. I would not be afraid to be ruled by Muslims who have overcome the faults and mistakes of Islam. We had one such Muslim in India. The Hindus thought he was the best president the country had in recent times.

I think I have given enough dose to Plato..this time i am expecting Part I II and III...best of luck and be busy...

Your doses seem to be placebos. You should try and put some real stuff into your tablets if you want to cure me. Take another look at the post to which this is supposed to be an answer. What has it addressed of all the points I raised? NONE. I REPEAT NONE.

Please read my posts before you reply. I spend a lot of effort on them. Going off on a tangent disturbs the continuity of our discussion. Thank you for keeping me busy.

Plato

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