To Hammad Qadri:

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 3, 2007 at 09:34

Qadri you wrote another infidel:

>>Regarding your point "Memorizing seventh century religious logic and trying to live and impose related backwardness in the twenty first century will not work", Islam never forbids human civilization to grow by its time that's why most inventors of the modern day sciences & theories were Muslims, see :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists<<

Qadri, you forget that scientists exist in all societies. We all have about the same average intelligence levels and religion does not contribute to any increase in IQ. What religion does is hinder free thought and try to rub out anything that questions its silly assumptions and claims.

All religions did that, but it is probably only Islam that continues to do so today. Darwinian theories are frowned upon by many Islamic countries. All kinds of science is discovered in the Koran AFTER Western scientists have painstakingly revealed the workings of nature. No Muslim has been able to come with any scientific theory based on the Koran which was later confirmed empirically.

You also forget that it is not because of religion that scientists exist, it is the universal thirst for knowledge that brings forth scientists. Some of the best so-called Muslim scientists and thinkers were persecuted in their time for their beliefs. Even in modern times the Nobel prize winner Abdus Salam belonged to a persecuted sect which both sunnis and shias consider to be heretical. Another Muslim thinker, the Nobel Prize winner Madgi Naguib was stabbed by another Muslim for his writings.

The darlings of Allah, the one billion or so Muslims, have produced Nobel laureates who can be counted on the fingers of one hand but the Jews who number a few millions and who are compared to apes and pigs (5:60)by the Koran have hundreds of Nobel prize winners among them. Just goes to show how Islam has crushed human creativity. Allah cursed the Jews in 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

The people who are cursed by Allah and are deluded from the truth are the ones who keep discovering Allah's truths. The Jews' performance also goes to show that Allah's curses are ineffective.

What the society in which scientists live does with their science and inventions is what counts. On that score Islam's record is very poor. The proof is in your claim of ‘most inventors of modern day science & theories' being Muslim and yet the Islamic world has poor industries, bad educational institutions, indifferent health care and a violent society. However great the inventors and scientists in Muslim countries they are unable to do much good in their societies. Muslim societies have to depend on the science and inventions of the infidel West in all fields of human endeavour. Why is that Qadri?

>>And regarding your point "your Religion is Scary and Barbaric combined" & the concept of some western circles that "Islam has spread on sword" I want to quote just two points for this.

- In times of Prophet Muhammad(Peace Be Upon Him) there was an old Jewish women in Madinah. She used too to throw garbage of her house on Prophet Muhammad(Peace Be Upon Him) whenever He passed through the street in front of her house. Once He(Peace Be Upon Him) passed again through the same street & she doesn't came out to through garbage as before, Prophet Muhammad(Peace Be Upon Him) inquired about the women & He come to know that she is sick & He went to her house to see her, the women so admired of this that she embraced Islam at the very moment.

Where was that "Strange Sword or Barbarism" in all this?<<

Why have you not given us the source of this hadith? I have not seen it in any of the four shahi ones. This is uncharacteristic of your Prophet. He had Asma bint Marwan, a poetess, killed for criticizing him in verse. He had a Jewish poet murdered for criticizing him. Similarly he had many people assassinated for being critical of him. These can be found in hadiths sharief and Ibn Ishaq's biography of the Prophet.

And the ‘Strange Sword or Barbarism' can be found in the story of what happened to some people who stole his camels. And also read what he did to Kinana bin Rabi, the treasurer of the Banu Nadir. In one case he cut off the thiefs' limbs, put out their eyes and left them to die in the sun. In Kinana's case he had him tortured to get at the treasure of his tribe. The brave man refused despite the torture and was ordered to be beheaded. Barbaric enough for your Qadri?

>>- If you read the history of spreading of Islam in Indian subcontinent, which has millions of Muslim population, you will come to know that no Muslim general with army came to conquer subcontinent ever to convert local non-Muslims to Islam but it was the Muslim Sufi saints who admired the people with their teachings & characteristics that attracted people towards Islam & millions of non-Muslims embraced Islam on the hand of just one Sufi saint know as Moinuddin Chishti Ajmeri(May Allah His Blessings Upon Him) & this left such an impression on minds of people that large number of Hindus & Sikhs still visit the shrines of these saints to pay their respects.

Where was that "Strange Sword or Barbarism" in all this?<<

So who was Mohammed Bin Qasim and what did he come to Sindh for? What did Gazhni and Ghori do in India? What did Qutbuddin Aibak and Allauddin Khilji do when they ruled?

In Pakistan you seem to live in a make believe world of Muslim benignity and greatness. And that is not strange given the kind of history you are fed on in schools, madrassas and universities. From the time of Bin Qasim to Aurengazeb, with a few honourable exceptions in between, the sword of Islam wreaked havoc in India. It is not just Western historians like Will Durant who have chronicled the depredations of Muslims in India but the best sources of what Islam did in India is given by Muslim historians of the time gloating over the massacres committed by the invaders. Just ask and I will quote you chapter and verse from your own historians. I desist because I have done it many times on Danielpipes for other Muslims and none of them have been able to refute the history written by those historians.

Chishti must have been a convincing proselytizer but to claim that this one person converted millions when even your prophet despite preaching for 13 years in Mecca had only a few hundred converts and after battling infidels for 10 years while in Medina managed to convert far lesser than a million. So was Chisti superior to the founder of Islam?

Present day Hindus and Sikhs visit his dargah just as they visit innumerable other such dargahs because of their large heartedness and willingness to concede that other religions also lead to god, unlike your violently monotheistic creed which seeks to reject all other faiths as an offence against your Allah.

I understand that you labeled Islam as barbaric because of present days suicidal attacks, suicide bombings & beheadings of mostly western people on the name of Islam & Jihad by so-called Islamic extremists as interpreted by western media. Read the comments in following links & you will come to know that why there were no terrorist attacks on west on the name of Islam when Islamic Empire was so big & stronger then now & that how roots of origin of this extremism go to the west not to Islam same like we have seen in 1980's that US dollars & ammunition flooding in to Pakistan for these extremists to use them against Soviets & same extremists counterattacking on West & its allies when they abandoned them.

Islam is not called barbaric because of the few incidents that have occurred recently. It is because of Islam's history going back to its very beginnings. The Prophet conducted more than 70 gazhwas during the 10 years he was in Medina and many of them were quite bloody. The Banu Quraiza being completely wiped out as a tribe. His immediate followers took his injunction to free Arabia of all infidels seriously and eradicated all other religions from the peninsula, Jews, Christians and pagans. And they did it using violence. The ridda wars of Caliph Abu Bakr are a case in point. They then raced out of the desert to conquer places as far as Spain and India. Why? What had people in these far off places done to deserve coming under the sword of Islam.

Do a little research on Khalid bin Walid to know about the kind of bloodletting the shahaba indulged in.

>>. (I wonder where were the champions of anti religious extremism when five years ago Hindu extremists massacring Muslims in Indian state of Gujarat)<<

My dear Qadri what you call the champions fighting against religious extremism were active when the riots took place and have been active ever since to this day, and most of them happen to be Hindus. They have been highlighting the massacres by going to the media, by moving the courts and publicizing them abroad. Can you say the same about the majority community in Pakistan where there has been a precipitous fall in the population of Hindus from their original almost 25%? Where did all the Hindus in your country disappear and why. Can you explain why the population of Muslims in India is growing faster than of the Hindus if they are such a suppressed community?

>> Read the comments in following links & you will come to know that why there were no terrorist attacks on west on the name of Islam when Islamic Empire was so big & stronger then now & that how roots of origin of this extremism go to the west not to Islam same like we have seen in 1980's that US dollars & ammunition flooding in to Pakistan for these extremists to use them against Soviets & same extremists counterattacking on West & its allies when they abandoned them.<<

You are right when you say the US is reaping the whirlwind from what they sowed in the Afghan wind. They not only armed the Afghan freedom fighters but encouraged the jihadi mentality with the help of the Saudis and the Pakistani madrassas which churn out hate-filled young minds. Your ordinary schools are no better when it comes to poisoning young minds.

School curricula have been examined by Pakistani intellectuals themselves who have come to the conclusion that hatred of Hindus is one lesson that has been emphasized in your school texts. Muslims lorded it over India for nearly a thousand years yet your schools texts are in marked contrast to Indian school books which sometimes even white wash what the Muslims did in the country out of deference for its Muslims.

Your historians gloat over the destruction caused by Muslims in India. Indian historians try to gloss over it and not let the present day muslims take any blame for the unprovoked Muslim invasions of their country. Contrast that with the constant harping by Muslims on the crusades, though the crusades were in retaliation for the Muslims conquering and converting the then Christian countries of the Middle East.

Consider your name, Hammad Al Qadri. If it is your real name it says a lot about the damage Islam has caused. If you are not an Arab living in Pakistan then your name has been Arabised even more than what your immediate forefathers did by naming you Hammad and adding an Al before your surname. Why is it that even if they are not Arabs, Muslims want to behave like pseudo Arabs by taking on their names and cultural values like facial hair and greetings.

>>http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/78

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/106946

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/112238

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/112259<<

The West is going through the dilemma of both being misinformed & lack of informed about Islam.<<

It is the Muslim world which suffers from disinformation and lack of knowledge about Islam. Why for instance do Muslims think that their prophet was some kind of glorious example for all mankind when he indulged in behaviour that today would be considered genocidal (Banu Quraiza), punishments that are abhorrent (the camel herders), torture for profit (Kinana Bin Rabi), assassinations for criticism (Asma Bint Marwan, Kaf bin Ashraf ….).

Muslims have been kept in the dark about their prophet by the purveyors of Islam. They have been given disinformation about what the Koran contains by quoting only the Meccan verses which sound sweet and sugary, and tearing out sentences without revealing the full text or context (case in point is the verse about killing one person being equivalent to killing the whole of humanity when it was clearly meant only for the Jews). The killing Medinan verses are reserved only for the fully initiated. Qadri you must come to terms with the Janus face of Islam.

Going through the links you have given I came across your post of Aug 25, 2007 and also the cloak and dagger story of a British agent. The suspicion dawned on me that it a story put out by Muslims (Sufis?) unhappy with the nasty image problem that Muslims suffer from today. Many Muslims seem to think that Islam is a victim of Wahabi extremism and it looks to me as though someone has taken the trouble to invent a story that will kill two birds with one stone. The growth of Wahabism is explained and the blame is placed squarely on the West. Nice. Islam is absolved of being a violent anti-modern religion. Reminded me of the Elders of Zion stuff.

This white wash won't wash on an even cursory reading of the Koran which screams abuse at the polytheists, and even often at the other monotheists, the Jews and the Christians. Verse after verse curses and abuses, calls for doom and the burning of polytheists in hell. Unbelievers are called najees and banned from the kaaba. Does Allah think that just becoming a Muslim makes you clean in body and soul? Look around you in Pakistan, how many of your countrymen have cleanliness of body and soul?

The Koran asks Muslims to go lightly or heavily armed and fight for Allah. They are GUARANTEED paradise if they kill or are killed in Allah's cause.

Read this article: http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Indonesia/10163708.html

The Bali killers only regret is that Muslims were also killed in their attack. They will also be happy to get executed because they are sure they are going to paradise ("People ask me, why am I smiling? I am happy because I will be united with 72 angels" in heaven, said Amrozi. ). You will of course claim that they are not true Muslims. You are welcome to that belief but don't expect the rest of the world to be fooled by such claims from ‘true Muslims' like you.

Qadri, the Wahabis have got their religion exactly right. You and other Muslims are so ashamed of what the Koran contains that you are trying to invent stories and interpretations that just won't fly. So spare us these cock-and-bull stories of the British having pumped up Wahab to damage the non-existent pristine image of Islam. You don't need the British or the Wahabis to give Islam a bad name, all you need are the Koran and the hadith.

Going through the link you have provided I came across this interesting story:

The book Confession Of British Spy is available on the following link :

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/British_Spy_Hempher.html

On reading what is revealed by the links you have given I found this little gem. Let us concede that the British did all that this author claims. Now let us compare it with what the Koran and Shahi hadiths teach Muslims.

>>People who read the British spy's confessions given in the first section will have an idea of what the British think about Muslims throughout the world. The following is an account of how British spies have applied the orders they received from the Ministry of Commonwealth on the world's Muslims and what activities the missionaries have been carrying on.

The British are a conceited and arrogant people. The high value which they attach to themselves and to their own country leaves its place to a symmetrical detestation when it comes to other people and their countries. <<

How about the conceit and arrogance of the Koran and by association Muslims? It detests unbelievers calls them najees and keeps them out of the kaaba. It calls them deaf, dumb and blind. The Koran says unbelievers are fit only for hell. It tells Muslims not to associate with unbelievers even if they happen to be friends and relatives.

>>According to the British, there are three groups of people on the earth: The first group are the British, who are self-portraited as the most developed beings Allah has ever created in the human form. The second group are the white-colored Europeans and Americans. These people may also be worthy of respect, as they so generously admit. The third group are the people who have not had the luck of being born in either of the first two groups. They are the sort of creatures between human beings and animals. They are not worthy of respect at all; nor do they deserve such things as freedom, independence or a country. They have been created for living under others' domination, especially that of the British. <<

According to the Koran also there are three groups of people. The Muslims who have easy access to paradise by killing or being killed in Allah's cause. The people of the book who can pay a humiliation tax and be suffered to live. And the pagans who have the choice of converting to Islam or being killed. Oh I forgot, the Koran also has a fourth type of humans, women. They can be beaten, be divorced at the drop of a hat, have to hide themselves from the lewd gaze of men and are worth only half a man in Allah's estimation as He has Himself created them a degree below men.

Just as the British think about the third group as being created to live under their domination, the three Koranic groups, the people of the book, the pagans and women have been created by Allah to live under the domination of Muslim men.

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