Noha: Time for Muslims to think out of their Book

Submitted by Plato (India), Apr 13, 2008 at 08:21

Noah, you wrote to Infidel:

>>This is false, prophet Muhammed never committed something without a sufficient reason : Quraish raised a number of wars out of hatred to the prophet and he had to defend himself and his people, do you think he would go into a war, and just fall as a victim?<<

Quote for us from the hadith or sira which show that the Quraish attacked the prophet in his Madinan lair. Your claim takes ones breath away. Muhammad began attacking and raiding Meccan caravans in true Arabian fashion. But the more civilized pagans did not even retaliate for a long time. At Badr the Quraish came to teach the prophet a lesson for trying to rob Abu Sufyan's caravan. And true to Allah's reputation for injustice He let the Muslims defeat a bigger force from Mecca. Muhammad was never a victim he was always the victimizer from the day he collected a group of armed desperados around himself.

Please read your own history (sorry not your Egyptian, but Arab history) before coming here and making such silly claims.

>> Prophet Muhammed never raped, he married 13 wives, and I know that, it was an order from God, and this is not rape. <<

Did Allah tell you Himself that he had ordered Muhammad to bed a 9-year-old, or that He told him to force himself on Safiya a day after killing her near and dear ones. Was is it not Muhammad himself who claimed via the Koran/hadith that that he was given special dispensation by Allah. If a rapist tells you that Allah had ordered him to rape are you going to believe him? Muslim claim that Arabs of the jahiliya killed female infants. Suppose I tell you that I know that their tribal gods allowed them to, what will you say?

>>So why wars were there: Prophet Muhamed first invited neighboring countries to Islam, and if they refused Muslims would conquer that country, and make Islamic law be the law of that country. This is because as any holy religion, the message (truth) should be spread.<<

You, Noha Yousri have been claiming that Islam is a peaceful religion. Read what is underlined. You invite someone to accept Islam and it is refused you attack and conquer it. Is that how Islam shows its peaceful nature????

So you admit that Muslims invaded neighbouring countries to impose Islamic law. Do they have a right to resist and kill the invaders? Now when the prophet invaded these neighbouring countries he also took booty which included their women and children and distributed them to his warriors and sold some in the slave markets to raise more money for more wars on people who refused his religion and so get even more money ad infinitum, to this day.

And have you forgotten what you said at the beginning of this post? That the Quraish were the ones who attacked Muhammad and now you are saying that actually Muhammad attacked the Quraish for refusing his invitation to Islam.

Remember Bush inviting Saddam to surrender to the democracy he wanted to impose on Iraq after he heard Allah telling him to do so?? What is your complaint about the invasion of Iraq. Saddam refused Bush's invitation to democracy justifying the invasion and the killing of thousands of innocents.

Bush has been inviting Ahmedinejad to expose his country's nuclear programme. He has been refusing. Bush attacks and conquers Iran. Anything wrong in that?? (Remember Bush also holds regular conversations with God.)

>>Do you know anything about crusades? their reasons? why Islamic Jihad to spread Islam would be criticized and crusades not critisized? why is it always that Islam is the only condemned holy religion?<<

You forget one little fact, Noha, the crusades came much after the Muslims had conquered and imposed your ‘holy' religion on the people in those countries, including your own ancestors, after they refused Muslim invitation to Islam. You seem to think that Muslims have the right to impose their religion on everyone else and even trying to defend oneself or going to the defence of ones co-religionists, the crusades, is a crime. It requires weird Islamic logic to think like you, Noha. Just as Muhammad conquered tribes for refusing his invitation to Islam can't you see that the Muslims refused the crusaders invitation to accept Jesus as their Lord. They also have every right to re-conquer their lost lands for not accepting their invitation.

>>Spreading the law of God is known to holy religions and apparent in crusades and Islamic jihad.<<

So why are you complaining about the crusades. The Europeans were only trying to re-impose what they thought was the holy law. You accept that the crusades were also about spreading this ‘holy' law which requires you to slaughter, rape and pillage across nations and continents.

>>Do you know how much prophet Muhamed has suffered during the very first years of his movement? do you know how Quraish has tortured him and his followers? why do you think prophet Muhamed would suffer all what he suffered to bring out a false religion?<<

Your knowledge about your prophet's history is abysmal. Read the sira. He enjoyed the protection of his powerful tribe and his respected uncle. Nobody dared touch him. Muhammad went about insulting and denigrating the religion and holy idols of the Meccans and yet they only mildly protested. What if someone tells the hajis during haj that they are worshipping a worthless piece of black rock. How would you compare what would happen to him to what happened to the prophet during the 13 years he heaped insult on the religion of the Meccans? Quote for us from the Sira or hadith to prove that the prophet suffered any great torture, except once or twice during 13 years of offending the Mecccans.

What has suffering to do with the truth or falsehood of a religion. Bahaullah suffered much worse than anything that Muhammad suffered and he was not even insulting any other religion. Why don't you accept the Bahai religion? Bahaullah at least has the merit of being a proper historic person with everything about his life being well-recorded and authenticated, unlike the overblown history of the Prophet.

>>where would he know such knowledge as Quran , when it was known that he was an illiterate?<<

Knowledge in the Koran? The knowledge is typically what you can expect an illiterate to come up with. One verse contradicting or abrogating another. (109:6 as opposed to3:85), funny science (sun setting in a muddy pool, mountains being pegs to prevent the earth shaking etc. etc.), curses (2:89, 4:46) and abuses which does not speak well for Allah's cultural level, exhortations to go to war and rob and loot the defeated foes, forever angry and threatening to burn and turture people. A well-educated person would be ashamed to write what is found in the Koran.

>>Why prophet Muhamed was accused of telling lies, while in Quraish he was called : the most frank, and most honest? Just at the time that he told his people that has a message from God, that they began to say he tells lies? why do you think that happened?<<

You should have given a little thought to the question you ask and if you are honest with yourself you will come to the correct conclusion. Let me help you. If you have known a person for years and he was always honest and scrupulous in his behaviour but all of a sudden he tells you that Allah has again changed His mind and has told him that corruption has crept into the Koran and he has been selected to correct it. Will you think that he is lying or would you take him to the nearest mental asylum?

>>why do you think that prophet Muhammed would suffer the torture of Quraish if there was not a real good cause of what he was doing? why he would put his life at stake, when he was the only first man to embrace Islam, and only few people around him? and he had all Quraish as enemies?<<

Ask yourself why Bahaullah also suffered all that and much much more. Muhammad's life was a cake walk in comparison.

>>Why would you tell me something about Jesus that I would believe, but then I tell you something about the prophet and you deny? Is not that a discrimination? Does not that mean that you are superior and I am inferior?<<

It is not anyone who is talking about Jesus. It is the Koran which says Jesus is not the son of god. Jesus had nothing to say about Muhammad! It is Muhammad who discriminated against Jesus. Why did he not accept Jesus as the son of God since the bible claims he is and the bible is from god?

>>>…: and these are arabic numbers: 0, 1,2,3...<<

This is real big time daylight robbery of intellectual property rights from the Hindus and some others. Muslims not only robbed and raped and enslaved the Hindus, they also robbed them of their intellectual treasures and claimed them as theirs. A simple search of the internet will tell who really invented the modern number system and how they came to be called Arabic numerals.

"Arabic numerals are the traditional name for the digits invented by Indian mathematicians in around 500 AD.^[1][2]

Conveyed by the arabic culture to Europe during the Middle Ages, these numerals are called in Arabic language itself, "Hindu numerals"," أرقام هندية, (arqam hindiyyah). Therefore the modern nomenclature, increasingly, prefers the term Hindu-Arabic numerals or just Indian numerals.^{[citation needed]} They are the most common symbolic representation of numbers around the world and are considered an important milestone in the development of mathematics."

I have pasted the above material from wikipedia. If wikipedia is suspect I suggest, you check elsewhere. Remember being boastful is not the same as being truthful.

>>I am really not happy, and it does not seem to be a useful discussion anymore , I am fed up of accusations that are not true,…<<

It certainly is not a useful discussion when you make claims that are patently untrue. I have shown you almost all your claims for Islam to be untrue. Show me which of my accusations are false.

>>…? are not there Muslims who have done a lot of good work in all aspects of life? are they not thinkers? you know not of the Muslim philosophers? why Muslims should be ranked inferior, and then there ideology rejected because they want to stick to Islam.<<

There are plenty of Muslims who have done good work. But practically all of them have been insulted and denigrated by Muslims themselves, both in ancient times and modern. In modern times you have Nobel winner Mahfouz who was almost assassinated by Muslims. You had the physics Nobel laureate Abdus Salam, but he was considered a non Muslim because he was an Ahmadia.

In ancient times there was Al Razi, the philosopher, who just managed to escape with his life. Muslims are not intrinsically inferior to people of any other faith. Their faith takes away their capacity to think. You are told that all knowledge is contained in the Koran, why should then Muslims make the effort to search for knowledge?

You are told by your sheikhs that the Koran contains scientific knowledge. They have no clue where this science is but as soon an infidel makes a scientific discovery they will soon cook up a reference to it in the Koran. Let Muslims start thinking out of their Book, and they will soon catch up with the rest of the world.

Noha, your conclusion: "so Allah is there, He will complete His light, whether people liked or disliked!" is the reason why Muslims are still in darkness. They are waiting for Allah to complete His light. But good luck to you all. You have a long wait coming unless you make the effort to make your own light instead of waiting for Allah to complete his.

Regards

Plato.

Remember Noha, you once asked me to give you the context to something I had written (http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/122429) and I gave you the full context in http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/122533 and asked for your comment. I am still waiting.

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