Maha Mohammed: Hello again. You are trying to deny acceptance of slavery in Islam.

Submitted by Plato (India), May 1, 2008 at 22:41

Maha, you wrote:

>>Allah made you, every atom, every molecule and every cell in your body. He is the creature. Did you read in you English Quran "He only has to say to it: "Be!" and it is.'" 3:47.<<

My question was can Allah make 1+1=3 and you have given a non-answer. Are you saying that if Allah says 1+1=3 and it is? Making every molecule in my body is not the same as messing around with logic and mathematics. Why don't you state this clearly and tell us Allah can do this and make a total mess of mathematics.

>>So what we only like God when he's nice and allow us to drink and have sex outside marriage ! but not when we do something really really bad like denying his existence .<<

Now you are talking. So God is nice when He allows all that sinful stuff. So why are they sinful?

Muslims have this curious thing about denying the existence of Allah being the greatest crime imaginable. But none have an explanation of why this is so. What is so terrible about denying the existence of someone who insists on hiding Himself from everyone except a few of His favourites? He will forgive you all your sins however horrible, be it murder, rape etc if you become a Muslim before you die.

>> Seriously!! Islam condemn slavery!! which history book thought you that!<<

Seriously!!! Have you read the Koran and your prophet's biography? History book did not tell me that Islam does not condemn slavery. The Koran told me that, my dear Maha Mohammed. Point to me one sentence in the Koran that explicitly condemns slavery. Show me in any history written by any Muslim or non-Muslim that the prophet did not hold and keep slaves or concubines. You do that and the population of Muslims will go up at least one, me.

>>The very first moathen (the person who calls for prayer and guide Moslems during prayer) In the history of Islam was a slave which prophet Mohammed have freed.<<

Freeing a slave is not the same as condemning slavery. He had enough slaves from his raids on neighbouring tribes. Muhammed accepted slave women from the governor of Egypt. He kept Rehana as a concubine. He gave gifts of slave women to his favourites (The History of Tabari, vol 8, page 29-30) " From his share of captive women, prophet gave his son-in-law, Ali a slave girl, Raytah bint Hilal to enjoy at his will. He also presented Uthman b Affan, his son-in-law, another slave girl Zainab Hayan and bestowed another girl (name unknown) to his father-in-law Oman Ibn Khattab…."

His wives had slaves to ease their life. The prophet frees Bilal and you think that is condemning slavery??

>>In Islam one of the good deeds that can make Allah forgive a lot of bad doing is freeing slaves (back then but now you can just give poor people money , food ..etc). So there were & are no slaves in Islam EVER.<<

Again, is this condemning slavery? In fact what you have told us now is that slavery is accepted in Islam because freeing a slave is considered a pious act. And you cannot free one unless you own one. By what logic have you concluded that there were no slaves in Islam ever? There are no slaves in Islam now because the world forced Muslim countries to stop this inhuman practice.

>>What is your point? I do not understand?

I think Hinduism is more like a spiritual practice unlike in Islam where there is specific rules for almost every thing in human life.<<

This is what you had written: ‘Therefore it is no wonder that Moslems request that the guidelines and rules of Islam becomes part of the rules of the country that they live in'.

You do not wonder that Muslims want their rules and guidelines to be part of the country they live in. Hindus to live like Hindus should have temples and street processions to exhibit their idols to the faithful. Will Kuwait or any other Arab Muslim country allow Hindus to follow these rules of their religion.

Dismissing Hinduism as a spiritual practice and not a religion does not help. Are you saying that Islam has nothing spiritual in it, that it is only a set of rituals and rules to be practiced and obeyed?

>>So you want a book that gives exact detail about every event that will happen up till the day of judgment and the way to handle it !. is that your logic?<<

It is not my logic. It is Muslim logic. Because you insist that the Koran gives complete guidance for all times and places. Giving guidance does not mean giving details of every event. Just as it is claimed that the Koran contains all kinds of science including the speed of light, the theory of relativity and so on where is there any hint on how to deal with major modern crimes? The Koran legislates cutting off a hand for even a minor theft. But there is no hint on what to do for major crimes like embezzlement which is theft of major proportions by another name.

>> So sex outside marriage is OK. And you do not view it as a crime. Guess what. I do and millions of millions Do . not just Moslems. Look at USA they are throwing parties where the girls or the boys commit to not having sex before marriage. Its common sense as I see it and obviously millions of non Moslems.<<

What is marriage? In Islam it is a contract between a man and a woman with the man paying a consideration in the form of mehr in the presence of witnesses. This makes it legal for a Muslim man to marry a 9-year-old girl and have sex with her. In the case of sex outside marriage you are referring to, it is between two adults in full control of their faculties. Which is better??

Since it is the man who gives the mehr it is made easy for him to annul the contract and so the triple talaq.

>> What slaves are you talking about? Please do not tell me you me the housekeepers because the are not slaves. The are not treated like ones!<<

I am talking about the slaves Allah allows Muslims to keep. When the Koran talks of what ‘your right hand possesses' what exactly is Allah referring to? Maha please explain this phrase to your readers. Slavery was banned only very recently in Muslims countries (there are reports of slaves in places like Mauritania and even in Pakistan in the 21^st century).
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials0...
http://hrw.org/mideast/saudi/labor/

And leading Saudi scholars such as Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan
support slavery and say that "Slavery is a part of Islam" and that those that are against slavery are " ignorant, not scholars. They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel."

Slavery and human trafficking

Main article: Human trafficking in Saudi Arabia In 1962, Saudi Arabia outlawed slavery, freeing about 10,000 slaves out of an estimated 15,000-30,000.^[23] Slavery was ended by neighboring Qatar in 1952, the Yemen Arab Republic in 1962, the UAE in 1963, South Yemen in 1967, and Oman in 1970. Some of these states, such as Yemen, were British protectorates. The British left South Yemen without forcing it to give up slavery, but did pressure the UAE into giving it up. In 2005, Saudi Arabia was designated by the United States Department of State as a Tier 3 country with respect to trafficking in human beings. Tier 3 countries are "Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

>>Have you took any parenting, family education or psychology class. There something called reward and punishment technique which by the way is proven to be the best teaching and parenting technique.

If Allah showed us how we will be rewarded without showing the absolute contrast then it won't have the same impact on the reader. And Allah is giving us fair warning.<<

This is what I had written: ‘Again and again in the Koran Allah claims to be the most beneficent, most merciful Creator. Logically can such a creator also punish with horrible torture (for ever) people who do not believe in him…

I am asking about the logic of Allah claiming to be most merciful and then going on to describe the tortures of hell for something that is no crime at all, i.e. unbelief. What you are saying that Allah holds out mercy only for people who believe in Him. Can't you see that Allah is a being with a giant ego who will torture you mercilessly for mere disbelief? It also means that Allah is affected by what we do, i.e He gets angry or pleased based on what a mere human does. What kind of a god is this Allah??

Why does Allah have to go to the length of putting us through psychological lessons instead of just making us His obedient servants and save Himself the trouble of getting mad at us?

>>I read 9:1-5 In both Arabic and English . and I do not see the problem. The Soura 9 talks about a story of a war that the Moslems went through in the early years of Islam. This war was not initiated by Moslems. God gave permission to Moslems in that war go ahead and defend yourself because Allah do not like passive Moslems.<<

What you are saying is that Sura 9 is irrelevant now. It is just history and Muslims can ignore its messages. But Muslims never ignored it. Verse 9:29 tells Muslims to collect a humiliation tax from disbelievers they have conquered and Muslims did exactly that until recently (Aurangzeb in India right up to eighteenth century).

Read Ibn Kathir's tafsir of al Tauba (9:1-5). (to those of the Mushrikin, with whom you made a treaty. So travel freely (Mushrikin) for four months (as you will) throughout the land) [9:1-2]. This Ayah refers to idolators who had indefinite treaties and those, whose treaties with Muslims ended in less than four months. The terms of these treaties were restricted to four months only. As for those whose term of peace ended at a specific date later (than the four months), then their treaties would end when their terms ended, no matter how long afterwards, for Allah said,

This is clearly telling Muhammad/Muslims that after the treaty period is over Muslims can attack the Mushrikin: 9:5. So when the Sacred Months have passed, then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Ibn Kathir:

Allah said next,

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. ) Allah said here,

Maha, tells you that Muslims can fight the infidels in the Masjid al-Haram only in self-defence. This clearly means that outside the mosque they are free to attack the pagans without being themselves attacked. Am I wrong in this interpretation??

Ibn Kathir continues:

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

Read what I have underlined. Will a peaceful people attack after a treaty period is over unless attacked. You also seem to be totally ignorant of Muslim history. Almost all the wars and raids except the battle of the trench were instigated by Muhammad, starting with Badr. Show me which wars the unbelievers started.

>> I can't write you the whole story, because the prophet Mohammed tried to resolve the problem peacefully for months before the battle took place. Do please read about it and understand it.<<

You cannot write any such thing because the whole story is about the aggressive nature of Muhammad who on gathering a band of armed men started raids on peaceful caravans starting with Nakhala. Please don't try to deceive us on this forum. Many have tried and failed. Show us the evidence for Muhammad trying to resolve problems peacefully, Maha. You don't have to tell us the whole story give us the references we will look them up.

>>In 9:111 God basically say to those who are going into that battle (Moslems were outnumbered by the other party) that go is thankful for there sacrifice of there life and there positions (money, horses, weapons….etc) and those will be killed while defending Islam and Moslems will be rewarded by going to heaven. End of the story.<<

Please go to this site, one of the most referenced on the net: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau9.html Given below is an extract of Maududi's tafsir on Surah Tauba.

If we keep in view the preceding background, we can easily find out the problems that were confronting the Community at that time. They were:

1. to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam,

2. to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,

3. to crush the mischiefs of the hypocrites, and

4. to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.

1. Now that the administration of the whole of Arabia had come in the hands of the Believers, and all the opposing powers had become helpless, it was necessary to make a clear declaration of that policy which was to be adopted to make her a perfect Dar-ul-Islam. Therefore the following measures were adopted:

1. A clear declaration was made that all the treaties with the mushriks were abolished and the Muslims would be released from the treaty obligations with them after a respite of four months.(vv. 1-3). This declaration was necessary for uprooting completely the system of life based on shirk and to make Arabia exclusively the center of Islam so that it should not in any way interfere with the spirit of Islam nor become an internal danger for it.

Read the underlined lines. Surah 9 is all about unprovoked aggression against adjoining countries (which had become helpless) after unilaterally abolishing all treaty obligations.

This is what Maududi a most respected Islamic scholar has to say about Surah Taubah. Read the whole of his commentary on the surah and then read 9:111 again and tell us Allah is being thankful for Muslims sacrificing their and infidels lives for His sake.

And why is Allah thankful to humans. Does He, the All-powerful need our help to defend His cause. Why do Muslims then claim their Allah is all-powerful? Allah also cuts a sorry figure in this verse. He is seen to be bribing His followers with paradise for killing or getting killed.

>>End of the story.<<

Keep the story moving. I will add my bit and give it a little more bite.

Regards

Plato

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