Fatima: At last a Muslim has got it right, Allah does exhort Muslims to sin!

Submitted by Plato (India), Apr 15, 2008 at 22:27

Fatima, you wrote:

>>yes adam and eve did sin .. and God did teach them .. and who said that you can't Sin?<<

Read what I have underlined. Are you saying that God taught them to sin? If so why do you complain about sinning?

I did not say that one can't sin. It is Allah who gets hopping mad when one sins. Why? He taught us to sin did He not? You know by letting Satan tempt Eve with the apple.

Allah teaches Muslims to sin in so many verses. Starting with 9:111 where He wants Muslims to kill or be killed for his sake. He teaches Muslims to keep women in bondage. He teaches muslims to take war booty including women and children as slaves (4:20). The list of sins Allah allows Muslims is endless. >> actually God made us sinable!! we do sin.. you think muslims don't sin? dude they do as much as you do .<<

Absolutely. Wonderful. This is an Allah I can admire. Allah made us sinnable and, of a necessity we sin. And I do think Muslims sin, and much more than us pagans and infidels. Only they don't think they are sinning as they think Allah has given them the license to sin.

For example they can marry four women. They can beat their many wives if they think they are being disobedient. They can chop off the hand of a kid if they think he has stolen something worth the value of a shield or rope. Pagans like us consider these to be great sins.

>>God forgives us when we sin and we ask for forgiveness .. and yes Islam does erase whatever comes after it . this is hadeth saheeh .. which means that its a %100 fact said by muhammed PBUH.<<

That is nice. God makes us sinnable. We sin. We ask for forgiveness. He forgives us. Wow. Fatima, don't you think it would have been easier for Allah if he had made us unsinnable and saved Himself and us sinners all the trouble. I would have thought that the maker of the Universe would have exhibited slightly more intelligence.

>>as for Aisha , I suggest that you don't talk so awfully about her story since you didn't know the women .. and we can't even tell for sure how old she was when she got married cause its not mentioned in hadeth saheeh nor in quran .. all that we know for sure is that she loved muhammed and he loved her truly too . and that he died on her chest<<

Fatima, I am not talking awfully about Aisha's story. Aisha herself talks about it. We can tell for sure how old she was because there are any number of shahee hadiths which quote her as saying she was six when she was betrothed to the 50+ Muhammad and was sent to sleep with him when she was nine (and still playing with dolls)

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Maybe she loved Muhammad, just as Safiya or Juwairiya or Rehana loved him.

Maybe Muhammad died on her chest (the shias are likely to dispute this) but if he loved her would he thump her on her chest enough to hurt her? I can search the hadith for this if you wish.

>>yes he did fall in love! with his wife!<<

Which wife? Aysha? What about Khadija, Sauda, Safiya, Rehana, and the twenty or so others? Can a man love so many women at the same time.

And can a woman love many men at the same time??? If Allah can allow men to love multiple women why not women?

>> you know what i think plato about Allah? i think he wants us to sin .. so that we run to him and ask him for help and for his forgivess..<<

Fatima, after reading what you have written above, I feel truly saddened by what Islam has done to a sensitive woman (I presume you are a woman) like you. You seem to believe in a god who wants you to sin so that He will have the pleasure of seeing you run and beg for His forgiveness for something He wants you to do?! You need to do a lot of introspection and come to terms with a god who has such a peculiar inclination.

I cannot pretend to be any kind of counselor. The only advice I can give for what it is worth is that sins are wrong only if they are unethical, and not because Allah considers some acts to be sinful. An act is sinful only if you intentionally hurt another fellow human directly or indirectly. An act is unethical if it violates the golden rule of antiquity, ‘do not do to others what you would not have done to yourself'. Search the entire Koran and you will not find anything to equal this ancient, almost self-evident, rule of ethics. All I could find was Allah behaving and expecting His believers to go against this ancient Golden Rule.

>>i think this is hard for you to understand . but well i felt like sharing :)<<

Fatima, I cannot claim have any clue to what your education, religious and secular have been. But to hazard a guess what you say about Allah wanting you to sin so that He can forgive you is witness to an education that has very little to do with logic, ethics or morality.

I am sorry, that sounds harsh, but that is the only conclusion I could come to with the limited knowledge I have about your thought processes from your postings. And I thank you for sharing your feelings with me about your beliefs.

>>God is bigger that hate .. so i don't think hate is the right word to describe what God feels toward non beleivers..<<

If as Allah claims, He is the loving creator of the entire Universe, He should be ‘bigger than hate'. But He does not prove to be bigger than hate in the Koran. There are hate verses in it against jews, Christians, idol-worshippers and hypocrites. (2:28, 9:30, and etc.)

>>you see God has created adam and eve .. heaven and earth . hell and us ... and everything that we have.. he deserves to be thanked for his blessing.. and worshiped for he is the creator of all ..<<

Have you thought about this ‘blessing' you claim He has given us for which we must thank Him? Go back in history and try to list the blessings Allah has given us. Look at the present and count the blessings bestowed on us.

If an architect makes a mess of his design do you thank him or do you sack him? Count the blood letting that has been going on since Cain killed Able. This god who had to ask Cain about the whereabouts of his brother and was told off by him that he was not his brother's keeper is the one you want us to thank?

This god's beloved prophet regularly raided unwary caravans, assassinated old men and nursing mothers, had a whole tribe wiped out, enslaved men, women and children. Why should any sane person thank Him for these ‘blessings?'

>> the problem with you plato is that you view God as a person .. he is not.. he is above.. way above.. he created every person you know including you<< I view God as a person because that is exactly how He behaves in the Koran. Can God interfere in the marital affairs of a human? (Zainab, number of wives he was allowed to marry). Can an all-powerful god curse like any human (Surah 101)? Can an omniscient being who claims to be the creator of the universe swear by some of His trifling creations like the fig and olive?

Like any weak human He gets furious when He thinks His commandments have not been followed, even in silly matters like not accepting that He is the one and only one lord of the universe. Even earth-bound dictators don't fly off the handle that easily. All I have to do to get Him hopping mad is to disobey Him. The Koran shows Allah has a very human-like nature.

Think about one little fact. Did you or I or anyone else on this earth ask to be born? You may have, but I did not. If I had been asked I would not have to think for a second to reject the offer to take birth in this hell-hole Allah has created with its diseases, cruelties, jihadis, wars, natural calamities and the other innumerable horrors. I am not that insane.

>>.. God is your lord rather you like it or not ..<<

He can claim to be my Lord. But I do not accept His claim as I do not think He has any right to that claim.

Fatima, the very fact that I can nonchalantly reject Allah's overlordship shows that He is a paper tiger with an empty claim to be waiting to grab our souls at his convenience and tear us limb from limb and feed them to his waiting inferno. My little girl's nurse has more terrifying stories to tell her and all she does is smile.

>>and if you don't beleive in the lord plato .. i don't think that you will spend so much time on the subject of his exsistence .<<

Since I don't believe any kind of lord exists, I really would not like to waste time speculating about him. But Muslim posters, including you Fatima, seem to find some kind of refuge or consolation by invoking his name. I know this is a phantom of the imagination of prophets, god-men, and god-women and I enjoy trying to exorcise believers of this ghost that has taken possession of their minds.

>> try this plato.. have a shower and then pray like a muslim does .. am sure you know it since you look like someone who spent alot of time reading about islam ..<<

Sorry to disappoint you Fatima but I have been there and done that. The ritual washing up, murmuring strange sounds, genuflecting towards the horizon all left me feeling I was taking part in some drama of the absurd. A god who expects me to take part in such absurdities is even more absurd.

>>if you were lucky enough to feel the same way a real muslim feels after a prayer.. if you reach that stage of peace ..then a great thing will happen :) if you think what am asking is crazy.. i suggest that you try it as an experiment.. you won't loose anything i mean .<<

The experiment was a total failure. The people who were with me felt at peace with themselves and their fellow worshippers. But they were an angry lot after the imam leading the prayer talked to us about the injustices to the Palestinians, the kashmiries and the sins of women who wore western clothes. The poor imam seemed to have lost his bearings after being exposed to the cleavage of a passing western woman.The injustices in the rest of the unbelieving world seemed of no concern to the spiritually aroused mass in the mosque.

I did not lose anything by this experiment except any lingering desire to prolong the experience.

Regards

Plato

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