Salah Ali: Your posts reveal your mind is evolving away from black rams doing their job to more speculative stuff

Submitted by Plato (India), Sep 26, 2009 at 22:45

Salah Ali, you write,

>>Then, what about the God in Christianity and Judiasm? Negating Islam is one thing but negating faith is another?<<

Does not Allah say He is the same god you find in Christianity and Judaism? Religious faith is the antithesis of reason. By definition.

>>In fact, all prophets speak the language of the nations they were born in. We do not jesus to speak Assyrian or Arabic but Aramic in which the Bible was written, for the best of my knowledge <<

Their preaching would be gobbledygook to their listeners if they preached in an alien language. Even Allah, who can be quite obtuse at times, realized this as He revealed in 14:4

>> Suppose, you live in a dorm in an English University, and you are English, no one would expect you to reject the English breakfast bacon which a Moslem loathes to touch<<

Many Arabs accepted the bacon of Islam after the prophet's sword showed them the merits of bacon he had placed on their plates. The Arabs were loathe to touch the Islamic bacon for ten years when he was sword less in Mecca. Why do Muslims even today expect non-Arabs to accept the bacon you are placing before them?

>> You may call this culture and a man is Chinese, Arab or English because he was born and brought up in China, Iraq or England.<<

This is a very perspicacious observation.

>>But so many English and Chinese are Moslems while you never find an Arab who is Buddist, and the arab Christians were there before Islam.<<

We do find many Arab Muslims also partaking of non-Muslim bacon. You never find an Arab Buddhist because the Budha taught his followers not to push their bacon too hard on those who could not digest it. Christian bacon is only a more mature version of Islamic bacon.

>>Islam is third humanity, so many Moslems in the world, and I suppose the non-Arabs have read the Qur'an in translations, there is something missing: The tone and the metaphor, there are also so many ellipted structures for whose compensation we need to dive into the deep structure..<<

By your own calculation non-Muslims are two thirds of humanity. The translations do not have just "something missing". Without the hadith and tafsir, to non-Muslims the Koran is just disconnected and disparate verses thrown together at the whim of a compiler not having even elementary knowledge of how a book should be structured.

If the Koran is so elliptical why does it keep claiming it a clear and easy book to understand: 054.040 YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition? [Also 5:32, 5:22 etc]

Now is the above verse also so elliptical that we have to dismantle its structure to realize those verses really are saying that the Koran is difficult to understand?

>>There is law and rhetorics . In the Arab world linguistics was based on the Qur'an...How could a man achieve all that :<<

By anchoring the Koran in the undeveloped language of the Qureish Arabs , Muhammad has condemned Arabic to be stuck in the seventh century.

>>Bringing third of mankind to his faith? Are those non-arabs including some fine scholars, stupid not to understand Qur'anic (deceptions) or worldliness?<<

Without preaching violence, unlike Muhammad, Jesus has more followers. What have you to say about the much larger number of fine non-Arab (and Arab too)scholars who have exposed Koranic deceptions and wordliness?

>>There is a Surah in the Qur'an en: Muhammad. I think this is very much descriptive of the prophet...<<

Muhammad is mentioned by name once but there is no description of him. It is mostly incitement to kill (47:4), calling down destruction on those who reject the prophet and gleeful descriptions of Allah's capacity for mass killing. And in case these threats fail the seduction of a sybaritic paradise juxtaposed with the terrors of hell are offered:

047.015 YUSUFALI: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

>>We expect Allah to be self-glorifying himself...<<

That is because the Koran has painted a picture of Allah Who embodies in Himself some of the worst characteristics of human dictators. Mass killing, vain to point of being narcissistic, with sycophantic followers ready to kill for the leader and most importantly needing constant glorification. Allah is an anthropomorphic phantom dictator of the skies, not a divine being.

>>He calls people to worship and dicrates a moral code which upholds cleanliness.<<

A needless Allah needs constant praise and worship which is a purposeless activity giving believing souls a false sense of security not very different from belief in the charms witch doctors dole out. Which verses dictate cleanliness in the Koran?

>>For example, a pious Moslem never tell lies or steals or contaminate his tongue with bad words or with backbiting...<<

But a pious Moslem contaminates his tongue every day with lies against Jews, Christians and polytheists whenever they pray using verses which accuse them of blaspheming Jesus and corrupting their own scriptures (would a pious Muslim not call a kaffir a liar for saying Muslims have corrupted the Koran??). He also contaminates his prayers with verses which use bad words against non-Muslims like unclean, beasts, senseless etc.

Allah allows Muslims to steal from non-Muslims:

008.069 YUSUFALI: But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Booty was probably accepted in Muhammad's time. But now it is illegal. And do remember that this booty included women and children who were used for sex or sold as slaves.

>>Why should anyone ignore the Ethics in Islam?<<

Can you ignore the ethics of 8:69 quoted above. Or 4:34 about thrashing women.

>>All religions share in that, and all religions can as well be naive.<<

But Islam cannot afford to be naïve as it is directly from Allah's very own mouth.

>>I believe mind is not a function of the brain.<<

Just ingest some magic mushrooms and observe what happens to your mind. Or consider what happened to your mind after the effect wears off. The chemicals acted on your brain and took control of your mind. The brain is not the mind but the mind functions because of the brain. No brain no mind. A no-brainer if ever there was one.

>>And logic is related to will.<<

Logic is related to will? How? And you claim to have read Kant and other great Western philosophers. If I am correct (correct me if I am wrong) Western thinkers would laugh at the possibility. Once you know the laws of arithmetic how will anybody's will, including Allah's , make 1+1 = 3?

Only in Islam is logic subject to the will of Allah. He in fact specializes in subjecting logic to His Will. He claims to be a needless being and yet created the universe to fulfill his craving for constant praise, prayers, adulation and the lives and screams of sacrificial animals. The irrationality of Islamic logic is plainly visible when reading verses like:

010.100 YUSUFALI: No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand. [ Where is the need to place doubt on those who will not understand. In fact Allah should remove their doubt]

011.118 YUSUFALI: If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute. [This means he did not make them one people and THEN blames them for quarreling – queer logic]

007.182 YUSUFALI: Those who reject Our signs, We shall gradually visit with punishment, in ways they perceive not; [A stealth God? He does not want people to realize they are being punished. WEIRD! But it gets weirder and queerer.]

010.099 YUSUFALI: If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! [Quite obviously this verse means it is not Allah's will that everyone believes. Now read 3:85 and 9:33 quoted below and try to figure out Allah's heavenly logic.]

32:13 If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance [Again Allah informs you that He is not interested in making everyone believe. But capriciously decides in 3:85, and 9:33 that he will not accept any religion except Islam, the very religion He is unwilling to guide everyone to]

003.085 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

009.033 YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Did your Western philosopher heroes have anything to say about Islamic logic?

>>We do not choose to be ethical creatures for we are ethical. Mathematics and music have proportions and beauty and they are not to do with nature per se. Think of both as independent of man's consciousness (awareness). How can we taste music and understand mathematics. in other words, wherefrom came our perception and conception. <<

Nature IS mathematics. If 1+1 is not two can nature exist? Music needs sound to exist and so is of nature. You end by asking a leading question which leads to Allah as the answer.

>>Muhammad is a mea ns to transfer a message.<<

In Allah's case the message is the messenger. Allah's taste in messengers leaves a bad taste in the mouth. He was not someone a modern civilized person would like to imitate. He broke Allah's law to suit his convenience. He married women after killing their husbands and did not even wait for the iddat period as required by Allah. He flouted common decency by marrying his own adopted son's wife. He called a judgment to have 800 men decapitated as the judgment of Allah. He showed no mercy when he had Jewish women and children sold in the slave market. How can anyone accept messages 'transferred' through such a messenger?

>> The message has so many details that are not Godly. Still the composition in its totality is harmonious. The harmony cannot be achieved by man.<<

You are lucky you don't live in a Muslim country otherwise your blood would have been halal by now for saying many of the messages in the Koran are ungodly.

You admit many details in the Koran are ungodly and yet you claim because of its harmonious nature it could not have been the work of man. Now you should consider the possibility they were interpolated by Satan. Such a thing did happen when the prophet mouthed the satanic verses.

>>I would say the speaker in the Qur'an is omnicient.<<

Not so. The Speaker desperately wants every one to believe and worship Him. If He was truly omniscient He would reveal Himself to all of us. This would be a simple matter for Him. Since He does not despite His desperate attempts with threats and bribes having failed He cannot be Omniscient.

>>I am not trying to trade views or force a conviction but I am trying to learn. I read the Qur'an critically and with Kant, Hegel, Husserl, etc. in my mind.<<

Kant critiqued pure reason. Try pure reason to critique the Koran.

>>Believe me I find something so powerful in the words and the composition. I am not dealing with history here, or politics. But of ontology and philosophy?

You are dealing with theology, a bit of ontology and zilch of philosophy in the Koran. Check the meaning of these three terms.

>>How could both nature and culture serve various stages of man's history? Darwin cannot explain the coming into existence of civilizations? And their disappearance <<

Darwin does explain the coming into existence of species, including homo sapiens who through the natural laws of evolution are capable of culture, a sure marker of civilization. Darwin did not need to explain the existence of civilization. He explained the natural processes by which we arose. He gave the broad picture the details are being filled in.

Does Allah explain the coming into existence of species? Well, yes He does by His own claims He has to just say "BE" and it is! And He also has a very good explanation for the disappearance of civilizations. He just sends down floods, earthquakes, stones dropping out of the sky and pestilence. We know all about Noah whose prayers Allah answered and He destroyed all of humanity except Noah and his family. His destruction of Thamud, Ad, Sodom and such sinful cities is gleefully and elaborately expounded in His book. LOL

>>One question (forget about womanly business Aisha and Mary) how comes that horses were made to be useful during the classical wars. I mean how could a horse be used in a given phase of cultural history of man...<<

Yes, Aisha and Mary are inconveniences so let us sweep them under the carpet for the moment. As to horses, horses are useful even today, even in war. Like black cows appearing out of white milk why have you materialized horses into this discussion? To explain your horses conundrum: They came to be used in war just as elephants were used in a phase of the cultural history of man. Or as swords were used or bows and arrows.

>>Where from the oil?<<

From the organisms degraded by pressure and other natural processes over millions of years.

>> And how oil is used in modern technology..<<

The brains evolved in homo sapiens by Darwinian evolution created modern technology which uses oil

>>We cannot say we are athiest and get satisfied while neglecting these significant issues which even fine minds as that of Haldane, bernal and Einitein wondered about.<<

Both Haldane and Bernal were Marxist sympathizers.God would have been completely off their radars. Einstein was the one who said: "Belief in God is childish superstition". He also said 'I am a deeply religious non-believer…I have never imputed to nature a purpose or a goal.' That pretty much rules out Allah's presence in nature for Einstein. From Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.

>>We will if so doing be like a satisfied Moslem who never asks questions.<<

Good Muslims never ask questions because they have been told not to by Allah Himself:

006.068 YUSUFALI: When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong.

The discussions on these blogs will count as vain discourse in a good Muslim's eyes.

>>We choosse our faith, it is not imposed on us. we cannot be ignorant, when reality is made clear to us... We are not fighting after all..<<

Salah Ali, why do you lapse into this kind of gobbledygook so often? As to being able to choose our faiths, the Koran pretty much rules it out with 9:33 quoted above and also:

004.089 YUSUFALI: …… take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their

ranks;-

Salah Ali, I see you are struggling to make sense the world you have landed in. You have been given an explanation for your existence as the will of Allah. Your forays into Western philosophy and your own confrontation with reality has resulted in the light of reason beginning to dawn in you. If I have helped this process even a tiny bit the time spent on this blog would have been worthwhile.

Regards

Plato

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