Amina: Are you leaving this blog because of fear of Allah? He tells you not to sit with us in 6:68

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 6, 2009 at 22:07

Amina, you write,

>>Ahl al Kitab, or 'People of the Book' i.e. People of the Torah, Gospel, Qur'an, etc. is a very inclusive term for the 3 monotheistic religions. Anytime the Qur'an refers to Ahl al Kitab it is speaking of Judaism, Christianity and Islam collectively as a single block.<<

002.109 YUSUFALI: Quite a number of the People of the Book be they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things. [ARE MUSLIMS TRYING TO TURN MUSLIMS BACK TO INFIDELITY? WHO ARE 'YOU' IN THIS VERSE?]

Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?.... [DO MUSLIMS DISAPPROVE OF OTHER MUSLIMS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH?]

Are these two verses also speaking of Muslims?

>>If God had really asked Muslims to fight Ahl al Kitab, we would be fighting ourselves. Which oddly enough, we are, thanks to religious fundamentalism who think it is up to their narrow mindedness to decide what a true believer is.<<

Nothing odd about Muslims fighting Muslims. Just Google 'darfur' to read what Muslims are doing to Muslims.

They started killing each other almost the day after Muhammad died. It was just Abu Bakr's sagacity in claiming that only the Qureish had the right to the Caliphate that prevented the Ansars and Muhajirs going for each other's throats the day after the prophet died. The prophet's favourite wife fought his favourite cousin and son-in-law. The Khawarij made life miserable for the Caliphs and so on and on….What ails Islam is not fundamentalism. It is the Koran and Sunnah.

>>Judgment is a recurring theme in any holy scripture, but it is maintained that only God will judge us and it will be done so on the Day of Judgement. <<

Like most other Muslims posting here you also have no clue to what your religion says. Have you not read the verse where Allah says He will punish them in this world? 003.055 YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

>>Muslim or not, murder is a heinous crime and religious justification (as in the case of the terrorist jihad) is complete nonsense. They are simply murderers.<<

Read this verse: 004.092 YUSUFALI: Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely…….

Show me one verse in the Koran which tells us what punishment is applicable if the murderer is a Muslim and the murdered a non-Muslim. On the contrary you will finds verses which tell Muslims to be hard on them, 9:73 or to kill them wherever you find them, 9:5. [Context, context?]

>>As for the khanzeer and quruud remark, you really show your ignorance. Open the Qur'an just once, please before you embarrass yourself. God is not a 5 yr old child who name-calls people in his diary. The Qur'an never once speaks ill of Jews or Christians.<<

Amina, I opened the Koran thrice and found Allah cursing Jews and Christians.

002.159 YUSUFALI: Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,- [ARE MUSLIMS ALSO INCLUDED IN THIS CURSING VERSE AS THEY ARE ALSO PEOPLE OF (IN) THE BOOK?]

005.013 YUSUFALI: But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, …. [WHO BREACHED THE COVENANT? EITHER THE JEWS OR CHRISTIANS AS ALLAH KNOWS OF NO OTHER FAITHS WITH A BOOK. COULD ALLAH HAVE BEEN SILLY ENOUGH TO INCLUDE MUSLIMS TOO?]

009.030 YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [ALLAH IS CURSING BOTH THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS]

>>Don't you you know that on one of the holiest nights of the Islamic calendar, God sent Prophet Mohammed to meet with Jesus and Moses as he travelled through the 7 heavens? Honestly, I am tempted to think you are a liar.<<

Is this some kind of back to the future? Jesus we know is sitting pretty at Allah's right hand as he was spirited away by the angels to heaven before the Romans could get their hands on him. But Moses died and was buried, and like any other mortal should still be in his grave waiting for Judgment Day. How did Muhammad manage to meet him in heaven? Has the Koran been lying about Judgment Day to us? You can see Muhammad made up this tall tale for five year old children.

>>On a final note, please do not burden me or anybody else by making a single person the spokesperson for Islam (unless of course he is our Prophet).<<

The only true spokesperson for Islam, as you rightly said, is Muhammad. In the final note he left for Muslims he has nothing but contempt for women. Here are the various reports of the Prophet's final s sermon and they agree on his condescending, contemptuous and PATRONISING comments on women:

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, Number 104 Narrated Amr ibn al-Ahwas al-Jushami: Amr heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say in his farewell address on the eve of his Last Pilgrimage, after he had glorified and praised Allah, he cautioned his followers: "Listen! Treat women kindly; they are like prisoners in your hands. Beyond this you do not owe anything from them. Should they be guilty of flagrant misbehaviour, you may remove them from your beds, and beat them but do not inflict upon them any severe punishment. Then if they obey you, do not have recourse to anything else against them. Listen! You have your rights upon your wives and they have their rights upon you. Your right is that they shall not allow anyone you dislike, to trample your bed and do not permit those whom you dislike to enter your home. Their right is that you should treat them well in the matter of food and clothing." [AMINA READWHAT RIGHTS MUHAMMAD HAS GIVEN WOMEN. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT ONLY TO BE FED AND CLOTHED! AND FOR THAT BIT OF CHARITY YOU SHOULD KEEP OTHER MEN OUT OF YOUR BED]

Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 651"You have rights over your wives and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and beat them but not with severity. If they refrain from these things they have the right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons. You have taken them as a trust from God, and you have the enjoyment of their persons by the words of God, so understand…" [YOU SHOULD NOT DEFILE YOUR HUSBAND'S BED. THE PROPHET DOES NOT PROHIBIT HIM FROM DEFILING YOURS]

al-Tabari, Vol IX, No. 1754 Now then, O people, you have a right over your wives and they have a right over you. You have [the right] that they should not cause anyone of whom you dislike to tread on your beds; and that they should not commit any open indecency. If they do, then Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain from [evil], they have the right to their food and clothing in accordance with the custom. Treat women well, for they are [like] domestic animals with you and do not possess anything for themselves. You have taken them only as a trust from Allah, and you have made the enjoyment of their persons lawful by the word of Allah, so understand and listen to my words, O people. [YOUR HUSBAND CAN BEAT YOU UP AND SHUT YOU AWAY AS YOU ARE ONLY A DOMESTIC ANIMAL IN HIS POSSESSION. THE ENJOYMENT OF YOUR BODY HAS BEEN MADE LAWFUL BY ALLAH]

This cute little statement of enjoyment of a woman's body by men was taken seriously by your scholars. Read what they say about this and come back just THIS once and tell your readers whether you were disgusted or not with these revered Muslim scholars:

"…mehar, is according to classical interpretation of sharia a payment for making the girl's vulva (bud'uha) lawful. To quote Kecia Ali in Progressive Muslims and Islamic Jurisprudence, chapter VII of the book 'Progressive Muslims, on Justice, Gender and Pluralism, page178:" ..the Maliki jusrists…express quite a different role for the dower, stating free woman 'is due her dower, and her vulva [bud'uha] is not made lawful by anything else….Various discussions of the Umm illustrate that dower is 'a price for the vulva' [thaman al-bud] and that 'a woman's fair dower is the fair value of her vulva' [qima mithl al-bud'a mahr mithala]. The commercial aspects of the marriage contract are unremarkable for the jurists. For example, in discussing a situation where a slave was specified as the wife's dower, Al Shafi states that 'she sold him her vulva for the slave' [ba'athu bud'aha bi'abd." The references quoted for these are Mudawwana, K al-Nikah V, 'Fi ihlal', 2:292. Umm, K al sadaq, 'Fi'l sadaq bi aynihi yatl:afu qabala dafahu', , 5:92 and Al-Umm, K al-Nafaqat 'Ikhtilaf al rajul wa l-mar'a fi'l-khul, 5:30

And the Koran confirms that women are meant for men's enjoyment: (Ali Sina, of Faithfreedom states:

30:21 says "He created for you, of yourselves, spouses, that you may repose in them" The Arabic text makes it clear that "for you" is masculine and "them" is in feminine. What this verse is conveying is that women are CREATED FOR men and are for their enjoyment.

Razi in At-Tafsir al-Kabir, commenting on this verse wrote: "His saying 'created for you' is a proof that women were created like animals and plants and other useful things, just as the Most High has said 'He created for you what is on earth' and that necessitates the woman not to be created for worship and carrying the Divine commands."

Hadi Sabzevari, an eminent Muslim scholar, in his commentary on another grand Muslim thinker, Sadr al-Mote'alihin wrote:

That Sadr ad-Deen Shirazi classifies women as animals is a delicate allusion to the fact that women, due to the deficiency in their intelligence and understanding of intricacies, and due to their fondness of the adornments of the world, are truly and justly among the mute animals [al-haywanti al-sa^mita]. They have the nature of beasts [ad-dawwa^b], but they have been given the disguise of human beings so that men would not be loath to talk to them and be compelled to have sexual intercourse with them. That is why our immaculate Law [shar'ina al-mutahhar] takes men's side and gives them superiority in most matters, including divorce, "nushuz," etc.

The prophet valued women solely for beauty, status, and belief. Their brains are insignificant:

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status. Her beauty and her religion, so try to get one who is religious, may your hand be besmeared with dust. (Book #008, Hadith #3457)

Now, Amina, as you trust and respect only what your prophet said, after reading the above quotes do you consider yourself to be a brainless woman who is a slave, prisoner or domestic animal in the hands of one of your relatives?

You may also have noticed that Muhammad is speaking only to men and they do seem to take seriously what the Prophet ordered in the way they treat their women folk.

I think Muslim women are bent on proving Muhammad right, for he said:

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: " The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence……..

Are you also trying to prove the Prophet right, Amina?

>>If you cannot fit me into your stifling Muslim/non-Muslim dichotomy, perhaps in the future, you will hesitate and widen your definition of a Muslim before you apply the term so conservatively to a small pool of fanatics.<<

The prophet as you read above established the stifling man/woman dichotomy with his statements on women's rights. Stifling and deadly to the woman. Now let us have a look at the stifling Muslim/non-Muslim dichotomy, which you claim does not exist in real Islam, that Muhammad established.

Quran 6:125, "Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe."

Quran 9:28, "O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise."

Allah Himself (aka Muhammad) establishes a clear dichotomy between Muslims and non-Muslims by making them unclean. Then He codifies this in His sharia by debarring them from worshipping or even entering Mecca. As long as Muslims prevent non-Muslims from worshipping the black stone of the kaaba the dichotomy between them will remain.

>>To Plato - I know there was a lot of your blah blah philosophy I didn't cover, but you made much of the same remarks as Dhimmi anyway. To your comment on the abaya (or any other Islamic garment for that matter) I maintain that it is acceptable only if it is the woman's choice and hers alone. Unfortunately in Saudi Arabia this is not the case. However, if she chose it herself, I say go ahead, I will not ban her. It is not for me or you to force her to cover or not to cover.<<

You may not have noticed, but I don't do philosophy of the blah blah type or any other. I do mostly religion on this site, especially Islam.

You have just repeated what I wrote in reply to your post: You wrote: 'Before I go though, can I just say, since when is NOT wearing a niqab/scarf/veil "Christian" tradition? I don't know how you got that idea' My reply: "It is not the niqab/scarf/veil per se that is the problem. Christians and others wear it by their own free will not because their men, like Muslim men, insist on it for fear of their women folk being leered at by other males (under the pretext that the niqab protects them from rape). Muslim women think they are doing it freely not realising they have been lured into that belief by the Koran and its male interpreters. So it is the thoughts and attitudes that force women into the black shroud that is the problem."

You seem to have just rephrased my reply. Especially, read the last sentence in the above paragraph.

Everyone who believes in freedom says the niqab is acceptable only if it is a woman's choice. That leaves out most Islamic jurists, and many Muslim governments. Muslims rant and rave about the scarf in non-Muslim countries but are absolutely silent about its imposition in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and its enforcement by huge numbers of men on their womenfolk.

>>Right well that's it for me. I stumbled on this site by accident and honestly it's not good for me to spend so much time with haters.<<

Allah also realized that talking with non-Muslims can lead to unbelief for He said: 006.068 YUSUFALI: When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong .

Clear instructions from Allah not to sit (debate) with us infidels. Allah hates disputations about His vainglorious self.

>>God willing, perhaps one day you will meet a Muslim who will be good to you and shift your perceptions more favorably.<<

I have met and live among many good Muslims. Though they claim to be Muslims they do not consider me najis as the Koran requires, nor do they treat their wives and daughters as animals under their control. Nor do they do dawa or demand that sharia be imposed everywhere. That is why my perception of them is good. But my perception of their religion is not good. Because I have read and understood what the Koran, Hadith and sira tell me about Islam. If I have not understood the Koran it will be because it is not a clear book despite its claims to be one or because it is impossible to translate and so gobbledygook to even the best of translators.

>>This has been a very educational encounter for me, and I hope it has been the same for you too.<<

You are turning away from this blog because that is what Allah advices about discussions with non-Muslims. But that you found it educational is encouraging. It is a pity that you have opted out of an educational debate.

Regards

Plato

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