A suggestion: study your topic BEFORE you post.

Submitted by zzazzeefrazzee (United States), Mar 28, 2008 at 23:20

Bos,

"I would guess that your knowledge of the Quran and hadith is more thorough than mine, i'm not a student of islam just a dabbler with limited time."

Does that mean that you're admitting that you really weren't very familiar with the subject before you stated that I was being pedantic and "obfuscating" and that I was wrong to challenge the popular notion that in Islam, martyrdom is the "only guaranteed route to heaven"? Is it therefore an admission of indulging in the logical fallacies of a hasty generalization and conclusion?

A word of advice: learn more about the topic that you are claiming some knowledge of before you post.

"But while the hadith list other forms of martrydom I have wondered about the fact that prior to listing them the Prophet stated that Abdullah ibn Thabit was recieving his reward according to his intentions, ie because he had prepared for jihad."

Have you thought of asking someone more knowledgeable, i.e. a Hadith scholar, rather than post vague assertions based on your own admittedly limited knowledge? If you want to know more, then you have a lot of homework to do, which you should perform not only as best you can, but as objectively as you can before you form conclusions.

"I basically wonder how this aspect would colour, (especially among the more militantly inclined) the islamic scholars interpretation, How many would conclude that adulterous women executed by 'collapsing wall' in afghanistan were off to paradise with special status and intercessionary rights?"

Why should the previous statement color anything? The first part is about intentions; the second on who is guaranteed entry into paradise. Such a disjunctive format can be observed in any interview. Precisely what does that have to do with the TALIBAN? I Think you're posing a straw man by bringing it up: remember Occam's razor. As far as "intecessionary rights"; what are you talking about?

Given that another referenced, researched, credible Hadith mentions a prostitute who was forgiven her sins for giving water to a dog, then there certainly is lot for you to ponder.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."

Interesting, so you can remove your hijab or chadoor, use it to give water to a dog, and are forgiven what are ordinarily considered the most offensive sins for the act. A similar sentiment if offered in a similar hadith provided by the same narrator, Abu Huraira (who was very fond of cats).

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "A man felt very thirsty while he was on the way, there he came across a well. He went down the well, quenched his thirst and came out. Meanwhile he saw a dog panting and licking mud because of excessive thirst. He said to himself, "This dog is suffering from thirst as I did." So, he went down the well again and filled his shoe with water and watered it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him. The people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Is there a reward for us in serving the animals?" He replied: "Yes, there is a reward for serving any animate (living being)." (See Hadith No. 551)

"another issue is that the Hadith while certainly being revered and assigned varying acknowledgments of authority, are still not the Quran."

Sure thing, but that does not mean that the Hadith are to be trivialized either. After all, a veritable mountain of Islamic practices and rituals are derived from them. Furthermore, an international group of trained scholars are currently investigating and examining all aspects of hadith, including using digital technology to record all early manuscript sources.

http://www.ihsanetwork.org/

"Also non military Jihad did not enter the islamic lexicon until the ninth century, (after the islamic world had experienced plague?)"

Your source for this notion that "non military Jihad did not enter the islamic lexicon until the ninth century" comes from where?

Of course, you conveniently overlook the famous "We have returned from the lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad" Hadith. For more info:

http://www.sunnah.org/tasawwuf/jihad004.html

Only radical Islamists of the school of Ibn Taymiya, and especially the admirers of Hassan al Banna assert that it is false. Other scholar assert that there is a weak link in the chain. That said, they have found plenty of other references to justify the concept as valid. Again: talk to a Muhaddith.

Furthermore, there are more Hadith that refer to acts of Charity as sufficient to enter paradise with certainty.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/005.smt.html#005.2239

I maintain that the only practical guaranteed route into paradise lies in military action that you cannot survive..."

Given the above, you seem very inclined to make a hasty generalizations to reach premature conclusions.
If you read it carefully, your quote from Bukhari 4:46 does not exactly support your conclusion either. Of course, the fact that this hadith has been interpreted in a number of ways, and that various translations reflect them.

"...mitigating that serves to create a 'debate environment', friendlier to islamist apologists than it should be."

Ah- perhaps your desired conclusions taints your objectivity? For aconfessed "Dabbler", you sure like jumping to conclusions!

"Perhaps if you know, you can direct me to where the quran or hadith say that non violent martydom carries the same reward as military martydom (i'm not saying it doesnt, just interested, especially considering, childbirth martydom and 70 virgins!?)"

As a matter of fact, I already did just that in my previous reply. Furthermore, in the Islamic view, the rewards of paradise are not solely limited to martyrs alone. Furthermore, you would do well to learn a bit more about the concepts of the houri and ghulam; you should add that to your ever-burgeoning list of homework. You can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

"Re the OT, God doesnt say Kill unbelievers he says 'kill specific groups of people I have declared to be enemies' not pretty reading from the God is love point of view, but a significant difference often overlooked."

I suggest that you re-read Deuteronomy 7:1. Many nations are slain because God has arbitrarily promised land to his chosen people. Why? Because the chosen people believe in him, that's why. Those who don't- ie. those who he has declared to be enemies, don't believe in him. Therefore they are UNBELIEVERS- or are they something else?

The same goes with references to idolaters. They are declared to be enemies of God. Why? because they don't believe in the God of Moses. Therefore they are necessarily "unbelievers", are they not?

It's just simple logic, Bos.
"Ps I only have adequate access to bukhari, are you able to point me towards a user friendly on line resource for the others? it would be appreciated if you are."

This is easily found with a simple Google search. Perhaps if you spent less time scrutinizing and questioning my post, much less accusing me of being pedantic and obfuscating, you would have readily found them? Normally, I'm not that generous to someone who has shown themselves to be so trite and careless in their remarks (and then not apologize for making them when they've been discredited); but, today I feel inclined to be generous. Here is one list that offers a compilation of several resources:

http://www.uga.edu/islam/hadith.html

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