Lactantius Jr

Submitted by Sohail (United Kingdom), May 9, 2007 at 11:14

I am sorry for the late reply.

You are wrong in saying "the Qur'an only supports the Torah," the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, it supports the whole Bible, and this is documented in Samuel Green's online article, "What Does The Qur'an Say About The Jewish And Christian Scriptures?"

Give me one verse from the Quran which says it supports all the books in the bible.

In seeking to deny the authority of the Bible (Greek Biblios ‘the books,' there being 66 books in the Bible, 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament), you deny the massive Qur'anic testimony to the Bible, along with Muhammad's testimony to it. Analysis of both the Qur'an and the earliest records of Islam, show that Muhammad and the first Muslims, believed that the previous Scriptures remained in an uncorrupted form, and were available during the time of Muhammad. Those same Scriptures are those we now have available, and in alleging "The torah and Gospel the Quran mentions is not the torah and Gospel which you have," you deny the historical record Sohail, and you must either produce your evidence in so denying it, or apologise and withdraw your baseless allegation. As a Muslim, your denial is more surprising than your denial of the historical record, and I ask you Sohail, why, if the Bible is good enough for Allah and for Muhammad, it isn't good enough for you? And believing as a Muslim that you will one day stand before Allah, how will you face him with the accusation that he couldn't preserve what he describes in the Qur'an as his unchangeable word? Surah 6:115;6:34;10:64;18:27;and 50:29, the Qur'an repeatedly saying it confirms the previous Scriptures, for example, Surah 2:285;2:97; 3:3; 4:44,47,51,136,162-164; 5:15;46;68-69; 6:91-92,154; 10:37; 11:17;16:43;17:2;20:133;21:7;23:49;26:196;32:23;35:31 41:45;46:10-12;54:43;57:25&27; and 87:18-19 all confirm, rather than repudiate or "complete" the Torah and Gospels, with the texts often being referred to as "inspired," and these Qur'anic quotes may be referred to using the online Qur'an browser at http://www.quranbrowser.com/

which may be used to confirm that even Muhammad himself at one point, is exhorted to test the truthfullness of his own message, against the contents of the previous Divine revelations to Jews and Christians:-

Maybe you haven't come across these verses:

"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." (The Noble Qur'an, 2:77-79)

The Book refers to the book of the People of the Book(aka Men of Faith), which section 9 in Chapter 2 talks about. The Noble Qur'an clearly says that the Book was corrupted by men, "those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,". It can't get any clearer then that!

Easter Sunday 8^th.April, is being joyfully celebrated by Jesus' followers as Resurrection Sunday, the day He did death to death by rising from the dead, as He said He would, the New Testament Scriptures promising Jesus' followers:-

Do you mean Pagan Easter?

In seeking to deny these glorious truths, you have previously referred to the ‘Gospel of Barnabas' ("GOB") to which I responded in my postings at the time, showing it to be a demonstrable medieval forgery, which also contradicts the Qur'an, and now here you are, quoting yet another spurious "Gospel," the ‘Gospel of Peter' ("GOP") wrongly thinking it suits your purpose in doing so, because you wrongly say, it denies the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ. It does not, and whilst the GOP does not deny the Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion, GOP and other spurious "Gospels" are shown for what they are in numerous print and Internet publications, and for those interested enough and persistent enough to seek out the truth, I refer to a book and Internet publications by Philip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies, Pennsylvania State University:-

F. F. Bruce writes (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 93):

The docetic note in this narrative appears in the statement that Jesus, while being crucified, 'remained silent, as though he felt no pain', and in the account of his death. It carefully avoids saying that he died, preferring to say that he 'was taken up', as though he - or at least his soul or spiritual self - was 'assumed' direct from the cross to the presence of God. Then the cry of dereliction is reproduced in a form which suggests that, at that moment, his divine power left the bodily shell in which it had taken up temporary residence.

17

I have readied these verses and have concluded that Jesus didn't like rich people which means he was a communist.

Firstly, we have to observe that this man is "praising Jesus highly" but then goes on to NOT obey what Jesus tells him he should do to inherit the eternal life that he desires.

Some quick remarks about the context. Jesus has just taught the people that to enter the kingdom of God (= get eternal life), we need to accept it as a gift, just like the children who have no inhibitions in accepting gifts. Jesus tells us that we have to "unlearn" our adult behaviour of "having to earn everything" because we cannot earn God's favour and grace, but have to accept it as a free gift of love. And the next we read is that this man comes up and asks "what MUST I DO to inherit eternal life". This shows (being human doings rather than human beings), how much this is entrenched in our nature and how hard it is to accept the pure grace (unconditional, unearned, undeserved, unending love of God). God's grace is without pre-conditions but not without consequences. Whoever has tasted of God's grace, in thankfulness, will then strive to live a life which is pleasing to God.

We can only guess at why exactly this man is praising Jesus so highly when he approaches Him. Maybe he thought if he praises Jesus first, he might get a more favourable answer from him? One that is "easier to fulfill"? Isn't that a common approach of many people towards those who are (perceived to be) in authority on a certain issue? But Jesus looks through these smoke screens and goes right to the core problem. Jesus isn't swayed by this man's attempt to win His favour the wrong way. This doesn't mean that this man was a total hypocrite - just trying to manipulate a bit in his own favour. Jesus won't let him do so.

I think there are several indications that this man was very serious with his quest. He was a very religious man and had diligently observed the commandments of God. When Jesus gives him a short list of them, he responds that he has obeyed all these from his childhood to the present day. He was indeed a devout and committed believer. We should also observe that Jesus lists the second tablet of the Ten Commandments, which deal with our relationship with our fellow men -- the examination into the relationship of this inquirer with the first tablet (about our relationship with God) will come later.

But in all his diligent observance of God's law, there still was an insecurity whether that was "enough" to get him eternal life. This didn't let him rest in peace. He wanted to make sure that God would in the end accept him in the last judgment and grant him eternal life. This man had his priorities right at least on this part. He was concerned with this most important question of what do we have to do in this life to be in the right place after it is over, and we have to face the judgment of God."It is appointed for all men to die once, and then comes the judgement." Hebrews 8:12

And Jesus acknowledges the right and good desire of this man, we read that He looked at him and "He loved him". He sees that this man wants more and is serious about it, he knows this "religious observance of commandments" isn't "it" yet ` [otherwise he wouldn't have asked in this 'self humiliating way' of falling down before Jesus in front of a whole crowd]. Jesus sees the true desire of this man, and because of His love to him He tells him [after reviewing some basics = some of the Ten Commandments] what he needs for eternal life.

Jesus says: Give away what you have to the poor. Then you will have a treasure in heaven. And then FOLLOW ME.

This answer of Jesus cuts right through to the core of his problem. He was rich and his wealth and the security that comes with wealth, was too important for him to give up. He wanted eternal life, and he would have made great efforts to do many good deeds with his wealth and his abilities, no question about that. But giving it up completely? Trusting ONLY God and having his security in God only? This was too much for him. He did get the answer that he needed. But it was also the answer that exposed his true heart. His wealth and position was more important than God. And he went away sad. At another time Jesus said: You cannot serve two masters. Either God or money.

"No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

Matthew 6:24

And Jesus' command revealed that though this man had kept all the "outward commandments of behaviour", he was guilty of breaking the first commandment "I am the Lord your God, you shall have NO other gods before me" Exodus 20:2-3. Nothing is allowed to take priority over God. For the man asking Jesus "what must I do?" it was money, security, position, ...

Yes, God is the source of all goodness and truth. [But God in the creation account pronounces His creation to be "very good" - a goodness derived from the one who made it. And there are many people called "good" in the Bible. Jesus has no problem with that at all. But Jesus points to the source of all goodness - and He doesn't say that He has nothing to do with this source.]

Jesus peels away the man's attempt to 'manipulate' in his favour. And He says to him, "don't use divine attributes for Me IF you are not willing to follow what I am going to tell you". Jesus does then make this clear to the rich young man, by showing him WHO [what] really is his 'god'. Jesus with this question "WHY do you call me good -- only God is good" and his exposure of the man's true heart makes clear that this statement has to be read as "Only call me "good" [meaning: (from) God], if you are prepared to fully submit to what I will tell you".

I got this article from www.answering-christianity.com

Isaiah 11:1-3
1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

As we see in Isaiah 11:1-3, there is:

1- Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding.

2- Spirit of Counsel and of power.

3- Spirit of Knowledge.

4- Spirit of the fear of the LORD.

Also, the verses above say "and he will delight in the fear of the LORD", which clearly proves that Jesus is under GOD Almighty and can not be equivalent to Him or part of Him, because GOD Almighty has no fear in Him. He Created fear, or the Spirit of Fear, and He installs it on whom ever He pleases. But He Himself doesn't have that Spirit in Him!

The verses above also say "He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;...", which further proves that Jesus is not part of GOD Almighty, because GOD Almighty Speaks and Hears whatever He Pleases!

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 18:19)"

Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 18:19)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.

Jesus said he was not good. He can't possibly say I am your Creator and by the way I am not good. The question itself shows the complete ignorance about what's written in the bible and reveals the total blasphemy and darkness that polytheist trinitarian pagans are living in.

Jesus is not GOD! The GOD Almighty of the Old Testament BOASTS about Himself! He countlessly reminds the Jews about Worshiping Him and only Him because He is the "One who took them out of Egypt", and He's the "One who Saved them from Pharaoh", etc... Not only that, but He also Punishes to death anyone who profanes His Holy and Blessed Name.

Jesus can not be this Holy and Mighty and Arrogant and Absolute GOD Almighty when he, for instance, escaped to Egypt for his life from King Herod! The GOD Almighty's Divine Characteristics in the Old Testament can not in anyway fit Jesus who is not "good" and who runs for his life from a creation of GOD Almighty.

"How can I get eternal life?" is the question. "Follow ME!" is the answer that Jesus gives.

Do you see what He is claiming? He does NOT say, these are the teachings that God has given Me. Follow these rules and you will get to heaven. Neither did he just say, "follow God, submit to God", but he said "Follow ME!".

Jesus talks to this man as if it is in His hand to give eternal life. Follow Jesus and you have eternal life. And that by the way is a constant topic in the teaching of Jesus. And it is completely against the tradition of Jewish teachers, who are approached and chosen by their students. But none of the disciples chose Jesus. It is always Jesus Who comes up to them and "claims them" and commands them to follow Him.

"You didn't choose Me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce lasting fruit, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using My Name."

John 15:16

Do I read into the text that Jesus connects "obtaining eternal life" with "following Him"? I don't think so. This is a constant theme of Jesus' teaching:

I AM the resurrection and the life, who believes in ME will live (eternally), even though he dies (physically); and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die (spiritually). -- John 11:25-26

I will give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. -- John 10:28

In the Gospel of John alone there are 16 passages connecting the very words "eternal life" with faith in Jesus. And not only with the faith in Jesus, but that it is Jesus Himself who is GIVING this eternal life. Indeed Jesus several times says: I AM the LIFE. I can't understand how Muslims such as you Sohail, can read this and conclude that Jesus never claimed to be God. Half His preaching is blasphemous if he was NOT God. Jesus didn't say "I show you the way". He said "I AM the WAY"
Jesus didn't say "I tell you about the truth". He said "I AM the TRUTH," Jesus didn't say "Following my words might give you a chance at eternal life". He said "I AM the LIFE". -- John 14:6

Jesus said: Follow me. [dozens of times]

You forgot about these verses:

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, ?All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" Matthew 28:18

You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

²¹Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." John 20:21

Jesus didn't die? Why does He talk about it then all the time? Jesus never said He was God? Really?

The evidence is all over the place. Even in the very passages which Muslims such as you Sohail, think strengthen their case against the deity of Christ. If you look closer and read it carefully, even those who do not believe it should be able to see it. I am quite confident that you can give me nearly any chapter of the Gospels Sohail, and I can show you Jesus' explicit or implicit claim to be God.["I am the resurrection and the life" is explicit in my eyes, while Jesus' comparison of His body with the Temple of God [God's dwelling place] is an implicit claim.]

I wonder what this verse means then:

John 20: 16-18

¹⁶ Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. ¹⁷ Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. ¹⁸ Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

In denying the Qur'anic witness to the unique sinlessness of the Lord Jesus Christ, you slanderously malign Him, claiming "Jesus did sin, he lied about the last day………" How dare you say this Sohail? Please explain exactly what you mean.

Abraham was also called Lord:

"Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord (Abraham) being old also?" Genesis 18:12

Jesus did indeed die for everybody's sins, but not everybody will accept what He has done for them, Scripture saying:- "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

Notice carefully Sohail, eternal life is a gift, not an imposition, not something forced onto an unwilling person, there won't be any prisoners in heaven, nobody will be held there against their will, only people who want to be there, entry being secured by what God gives freely to the repentant sinner, free to them, but paid for at great expense by Him, that's Grace Sohail, God's Riches At Christ's Expense

"God loved the people of this world so much that He gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in Him will have eternal life and never really die. God did not send His Son into the world to condemn its people. He sent Him to save them! No one who has faith in God's Son will be condemned. But everyone who doesn't have faith in Him has already been condemned for not having faith in God's only Son. John 3:16-18

The verse above clearly proofs that Jesus came to die for those who only believed in him.

A question for you:

Is Jesus equal to God?

Sohail

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'^[" 20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy." 21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!" 24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Mark 10:17-24

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