sTs: Thank you for the education on how to use my mind about Islam

Submitted by Plato (India), Jul 8, 2008 at 22:08

sTs, you wrote:

>>Listen Plato, let us be realistic and use your mind.<<

Very good advice sTs. As advised I intend to use my mind to study your post and educate myself.

1. >>I am not sure if you are Christian or not, but the Christians they worship Jesus Christ who is a human made of flesh and they worship the Cross and they worship Mary the Mother of Jesus and they worship the Holy Ghost and I don't think they know what the holy Ghost is. they worship all those beside the father (God) <<

I am not a slave of any god, visible or in hiding. Trying to be realistic and using my mind I wondered: What is wrong with worshipping Christ, the cross or a ghost holy or unholy?

2. >>We only worship but God, there are rituals like prayer, as the Jews and Christians pray towards Jerusalem in earlier days, I am not sure what they do today, Muslims prayed pointing towards Jerusalem at the begining then God commanded us to pray towards Mecca (Kaba'a). We do not worship Kaba'a nor do we worship Safa and Marwah, and I believe you are ignorant about the two places and the meaning of them, Also I believe you don't know that Kaba'a is the first house of prayer set by Adam as commanded by God on this earth.<<

Trying to be realistic and also trying to use my mind I wondered why I should pray facing Mecca only if Allah claims to be everywhere. Will he get angry if I pray facing the toilet in my house? Allah never commanded me to do anything, least of all pray to Him. Why should I believe a person who died 14 centuries ago claimed in a book said to have been revealed to him says that I must pray facing a little black stone lying in Mecca?

Thank you for educating me about the fact that the Kaaba is the first house, (housing a little black stone) of prayer on earth. But I take your advice to use my mind seriously and so I must ask why the all-powerful Allah who has no needs so desperately needs his slaves to pray to him five times a day (facing this black stone)?

3. >>Abraham rebuilt the Kaba'a with Ishmael (His son) whom the Jews and christians deny. <<

Okay, so the Jews and Christians deny this legend and Muslims affirm it. What is your evidence for affirming the story? The Koran says so? You will have to do better than that to satisfy my mind. There is no historical evidence for any of these prophets. Except possibly the ‘corrupted' Bible and Jewish scriptures.

4. >> and Safa are two hills in Mecca when Hagar was going back and forth looking for water for her baby child (17 years old baby according to the bible) to give him a drink of water otherwise he will die. <<

Because Hagar, was abandoned in the middle of the desert by a prophet of the merciful Allah, after fathering a child by her, and she ran back and forth between Safa and Marwa, they become symbols of Allah?? I notice that you have no comment on Allah's confession that Safa and Marwah are His symbols.

sTs two simple questions: Are Marwa and Safa Allah's symbols? And was Allah mistaken in anointing them as His symbols in 2:158 and consequently turning them into His idols and telling his faithful there is no sin in compassing them?

Using my mind, as you advised, the idols Hindus worship, or the cross of the Chirstians (cross is worshipped?) also seem like symbols of Allah as that is what their holy books tell them. Again as you advised, I have to be realistic. There is no way I can judge the holy book of any religion to be truer that the others. Would you care to bring some proof that the Koran is the revealed word of God? Hopefully you can do better than telling us that the Koran tells us it is the word of Allah.

5. >>The Black stone, was not black, it was whiter than the snow, it was blackend because of the sins of the people all over the world, it is a heavenly stone, not of this earth. we don't worship it. <<

Oh!

Using my mind I thought to myself: A stone with such a magical property and having dropped right out of heaven deserves to be worshipped. The pagans believed that and so worshipped it. Muslims do everything the pagans did and still claim it is not idol worship. Why? Oh stupd me. I forgot. Muslim logic is beyond the understanding of unbelievers. I am getting a very good education!

6. >>In every religion there are rituals, but in other religions (other than Islam) they worship the earthly things. We worship God only, we don't worship the cross, or Mary or Mohammad, or Jesus or the Holy Ghost. <<

sTs, what is wrong with worshipping earthly things? Oh stupid uneducated me, they are not heavenly things.

7. >>Arabic is the Language of the Quran, What was the Language of the Torah and Ingeel ?? IT was Hebrew and Aramaic, right ? where are these original works of God?? . Non-Existant !!!! <<

Orignal works of Allah are now non-existent? My mind went into overdrive with what you said: Whatever will Muslims think of next! Great news for us infidels. We are capable of destroying Allah's words.

sTs what you have said means that either Allah has no problem with people mangling or changing His words or He is incapable of protecting His message. So which is it?? Please educate me.

8. >>The Quran is wholey the words of God, the Bible are books written by earthly people, whose work have been mutilated, corrupted, forged to suit their interests during the eras they lived in. <<

In your comment just before this you said the Torah and Ingeel were the works of Allah, later corrupted by humans. Now you are saying they are the work of earthly people. So which is it?

9. >>These books of the bible were translated from Hebrew and Aramaic to Latin and English and other Earthly languages. What do you think happend during the translation. wrong meaning. <<

So you are claiming that along with Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic are heavenly languages, and other languages like Latin and English are not. If two heavenly languages could not retain the purity of the message they contained why should Arabic another of the triad of heavenly languages?

And you do have evidence of humans fiddling with this heavenly language, Arabic. Remember the diacritical marks that were later put in to standardize the reading of the Koran. When the maulanas put in diacritical marks did they also appear miraculously in the tablet preserved in heaven. Or is it the claim that the real standard for the Koran is its recitation and not what is written?

You also say that the translated Torah and Ingeel suffered from mis-translation. Is the torah which exists in the original Hebrew still the undiluted word of Allah? I am only trying to be realistic and also trying to use my mind.

10. >>first of all the original text of the bible does not exist, second the translation were corrupted and we have seen how the translation of the Quran could be corrupted by people who do not fully understand the Arabic language. <<

Astagafu???? Allah's final words can be corrupted when it is t ranslated?

What happened to Allah's word that His words will never be corrupted (again, that is). Oh, stupid me, I forgot, it applies only to His words in Arabic.

Using my mind I asked myself how come Allah did not know, especially after His experience with a the Bible and the Torah, that His messages are easily corrupted by humans through translation or because of evil intent. What I have asked Khaled al Mutairy is why the all-powerful Allah is incapable of giving messages which will not lose their true meaning when translated from the heavenly language, Arabic. Why has Allah limited His powers of preservation of His message only to Arabic??

11. >>But at least the Quran as originally descended on Mohammad is preserved. All over the word 1.5 Billion muslims read the same text. it is a reference for any dispute. <<

It may be the same text (actually different from the original because the diacritical marks were put in later by humans) but by Muslim claims that the true meaning is available only in Arabic it is useless as a reference for disputes between people who do not understand the heavenly language.

12. >>The Bible have 1000s of different copies and different wordings and different meanings <<

Posters on this blog (refer to dhimmi no more's posts) have pointed out that there are differences between the Cairo edition of 1924 and the Tunisian version (Maaliki against Maliki). Also there are differences between the early Korans kept in the Topkapi and Tashkent museums. Your advise to use my mind led me to this conclusion: If there is even one word different between different Korans it proves Allah has also not kept His word to finally being able to prevent such corruption. Since Allah failed to preserve His message almost 120,000 times how can I place any confidence in His 120,001^st attempt?

Khaled Al Mutairy has given link (http://i-keighley.com/commonly-misquoted-quran-verses.php) to a Muslim site with a list of verses which it claims have been badly mistranslated. Am I being unrealistic in asking: Why are Muslim incapable of understanding that this is Allah's failure to protect His message. He may have partially succeeded in having Korans that are substantially unchanged over the centuries. But if His messages get so badly mangled when translated for the benefit of the vast majority of mankind, who Allah knew did not speak the heavenly language Arabic, what use was His ensuring that copies of the Koran contain His exact words?

13. >>Which one do you follow a corrupt book the bible which is corrupt and you do not know which is God's words and which is people's words or the Quran which is wholey God's words.<<

First of all calling the Bible a corrupt book I come to the realistic conclusion that you have blasphemed the Christian religion. I also am dimly aware that if anyone blasphemes Islam fatwas are issued allowing the spilling of his blood and assuring the killer a place in heaven.

My dear sTs, I would rather follow a corrupt book which does not call for violence against my fellow humans rather than one which is full of curses and abuses for infidels and encourages their elimination by violence (9:111, 9:29…).

If I followed the Bible and knew it contained corrupt verses then I could console myself that the horror verses it contains, that Muslims are ever ready to point to, could be human interpolations but with the Koran being the literal word of Allah, I would never be able to live down 9:111, 9:29 etc.

Muslims have found a way out. Whenever they come across verses like 9:111 or 9:29 they triumphantly proclaim the verses have been mistranslated, picked out of context or misunderstood. Have I used my mind to reach a realistic conclusion, sTs?

14. >>All the time during mankind on this earth, God send many prophets, why do you think he sent so many prophets ??? - I am not sure if you know the answer. <<

My mind mulled over this one and came to this conclusion: I certainly know the answer to your question of why Allah sent so many (120,000?) messengers. Allah is powerless. He could not do the job of conveying His message Himself. And even after delegating it to thousands of prophets He could not ensure that His messages were understood and followed.

Either He could not locate good prophets from the millions of people He had Himself created or the messages were so much gobbledygook that people either soon forgot them or invented better stuff by themselves (i.e. corrupted Allah's messages).

In desperation to hide His ineptness Allah claims through Mohammed that (after failing thousands of times) with him He has finally learned how to protect his words and the message (in heavenly Arabic) will never be lost or corrupted. But even before Muhammad was reduced to bones in his grave, humans had to invent diacritical marks for the heavenly Arabic for Allah's message to make sense.

15. >>God said in the Quran that he sent a prophet to every nation on this earth and he sent Mohammad to all the world. People should master Arabic Language. Although 1.5 billion people read Arabic, but a fraction knows it well (even Arabic native tongue people do not know it very well) <<

People should master Arabic language? You later claim that even native speakers do not understand Arabic language well. Why? Because it is a heavenly language? And are we to spend a lifetime to mastering a language to understand Allah's message while the struggle to maintain ourselves takes up so much time. Why did the all-powerful Allah not have the sense to ensure that His message is clear in all languages? Was such a simple matter beyond His powers or was He favourably inclined towards the Arabs, especially the Qureish in whose dialect He chose to reveal the Koran?

sTs have you asked yourself why this all-powerful Allah could not make Himself understood in all languages. This Muhammad who has been sent to all mankind could not even make himself understood to his own people. If his message had been clear there would be no Mohammed Atta, Arab suicide bombers or Arabs beheading infidels. Or would there, given 9:111 which is a very clear message??

16. >>Why they Arabs are ignorant of their language ??? - because of the west colonization and domination, but we are witnessing awakening in this century, it is gradually being enforced. <<

I must grant you this sTs, you have invented something else to blame the West for. You have revealed that Arabs have become ignorant of their language because of western colonization and domination. Now you can conveniently hang the crimes of Mohammed Atta, and other suicide bombers on the West because the poor souls could not understand the true message of the Koran as they were made ignorant of their language by the West. sTs you are proving to be a good educator for ignorant people like me. Thank you.

When did the West ever colonise or dominate the Hejazi Arabs? You need to educate me on this too, sTs. Could it have been Lawrence of Arabia blowing up some rail tracks?

17. >>so in 20 years time, you wil hear of a strong Islam and Muslims <<

A prophecy? It becomes you. After all Muslims have to follow their prophet closely in all he did. My sincere wishes that Allah fulfils your prophecy. But unfortunately being realistic, as you advised, if the results of all the prophesies and supplications that are made in almost every mosque on Fridays are anything to go by I am a bit pessimistic on that score. Allah seems to have abandoned His most admiring slaves.

>>I beg you before you make any stupid comments read history impartially and read Islam and the Quran with open mind, then God willing you will be guided, otherwise you will be at loss in this life and hereafter<<

sTs, my mind went back to verse 005.101 where Allah tells me to be an unquestioning believer: YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you,..

The Koran tells one to close your mind and you a Muslim on the other hand tell me to read the Koran with an open mind. Using my mind, as you have advised, the realistic conclusion is you are asking me to defy Allah.

As to being at a loss in this life, I am reasonably comfortable, as you can guess from the time I spend on this blog. And as far as life after death is concerned I am unwilling to place any faith in a person who claimed to get messages through some strange being called an angel who told him that another phantom being who calls Himself Allah has prepared a gruesome place called hell for people like me (18:29) and a place full of sybaritic pleasures for people like Mohammed Atta and his merry men, 9:111.

Having read points 1 to 17, I feel less stupid and better educated already. Did I forget to warn you that if you read my comments you might end up less educated? I am sure you are too clever by half for that.

>>enough is said<<

Not enough said sTs, I await more from you to further open up my uneducated mind.

Regards

Plato

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".