sTs: Islam corrupts logic and reason - Part III

Submitted by Pato (India), Sep 25, 2008 at 04:25

sTs, you wrote:

>>> the big bang theory,…<< - The big bang theory mentioned in the Quran in this verse (Q 21:3)-……, the only thing that changes is their interpretations and translations<

A very Islamic reply, sTs. God's words as in the vocalization of the Koran remain intact but their interpretations and translations change. You are saying that if the universe reaches the stage when it starts contracting the meaning of a word like expand will change miraculously to contract?

Scientists don't change their minds. They interpret experimental data and think up theories to explain them or they think up theories and test them in the lab. The verse 21:30 (not 21:3) says:

21:30 Yusuf Ali:Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Rashad Khalifa: Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? …..

sTs, the earth and the heavens did not exist together at the time of the big bang. The earth formed only about 5 billion years ago. The big bang took place more than 10 billion years ago. This verse is talking about the earth and the heavens existing as one unit before the bang. The earth formed only after a series of cataclysmic events like the birth and destruction over a period of billions of years.

>>>the development of the fetus inside the womb,…<< - You just showed me how ignorant you are - learn from internet ……the stages of Fetus development described by the Quran and described by science today<<

I agree I am totally ignorant about many aspects modern medical science. But we all are aware of some common medical facts. We know that sperm comes from our testicles. But the Koran says it comes from near the backbone (86:07). That one little error tells us the Koran is the word of Muhammad.

If you are referring to the seminal fluid produced by the prostate and seminal vesicles you will find they are located between the bladder and rectum. To argue that the Koran is referring to this fluid in procreation would mean that it is not giving much importance to the sperm. But clearly the Koran is referring to sperm's role in procreation, and it comes from the testicles which is located outside the rib cage.

023.013 YUSUFALI: Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;

036.077: Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm?...

076.002 Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him:…

032.008 And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:

Is only sperm involved in our creation? Allah's ignorance is showcased in these verses. He says nothing of the female contribution, the egg. If Allah (Muhammad) had mentioned the egg which plays an even more important role than the sperm (it contains the other chemicals and organelles like mitochondria required for the embryo's growth and development) I would have been convinced the Koran is a miracle book. Allah talks of dust, clay and such other ancient myths about creation but is silent about the female egg. Another missed opportunity to demonstrate the Koran's miraculous nature.

And why does Allah say it is a despised liquid (032.008 YUSUFALI: And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised)? Why does Allah create despicable things like sperm, pigs, dogs, satan? He also claims that menstruation is a sickness/pollution and men should keep away till they are cleansed (2:222). If menstruation is a sickness so is urination, and defecation. In both cases, like menstruation, the body is getting rid of some unwanted stuff.

As to the development of the fetus the vague references to clot, flesh etc in the Koran were all known and seen by the ancients in aborted fetuses

>>> the sky and its layers,…<< ……Check the atmospheric layers of the sky, how the scientists defined it into 7 layers and they named each layer<<

Okay I have checked how scientists have divided the atmosphere into seven (and sometimes six) layers. I also checked the Koran and found these verses:

041.012 YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

071.015 -16
YUSUFALI: "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, "'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?

In these verses you see Allah's (Muhammad's) confused cosmology in all its ‘glory'.

If the seven heavens that the Koran talks about are these layers of the atmosphere then it would mean that the stars the sun and the moon are within these atmospheric layers with the stars almost within arms reach as they are in the lower heavens with the moon above them!! There are no reports of any astronaut going past stars, the moon or sun when they went beyond the seven layers of the heavens.

If you are willing to concede that the seven layers talked about are not the atmospheric layers we still have a problem as the Koran says the stars are in the lower heaven and the moon is in the midst of the seven heavens which is clearly not the case.

>> the expanding universe,…<< - The Quran is very clear and made this point very clear, I don't have to go to any translator to understand it . Verse (Q 51:47) says that God created the heavens and that God is expanding it.

Really? They why did the translators who had not known about the expanding universe translate it as the sky being vast?

Why do you need a translator. You say you are an Arab.

Yusufali: "create the vastness of space"
Pickthal: "make the vast extent of heaven"
Shakir: "maker of things ample"

Recent translators:
Khalifa: "we will continue to expand it"

Muhammad Asad: "who are steadily expanding it"

sTs what is your explanation for this difference? Has the meaning of the Arabic word for vastness changed to expand since the time of Yusuf Ali?

>>the darkness inside deep oceans,…<< - How do you know unless you saw it on TV, ignorant

Any ignorant sailor who fell into the sea and went down twenty or thirty feet would observe the sea becoming darker as he went down. sTs if you know swimming it will be an educative experience to dive into the deep end of a pool and note how it gets darker as you reach the bottom.

>> the water and the soil,…<< - You see I told you are a veryu ignorant person who wants to talk about something he does not know, ……..22:5 & 41:39 it talks about what happens to the soil when the water falls on it and then check scientific explanation and relation between water & soil<<

Tell the readers more about my ignorance after reading this:

22:5 Yusuf Ali: …and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

Any illiterate farmer could have told you that when rain falls on barren ground it brings forth plant life that lay hidden in their seeds. As an Arab, even the illiterate and uneducated Mohammad would have known a lot about date palms and that there are male and female varieties (i.e. dioecious). But there are plants like peanut ( a legume) which self pollinate (Wikipedia). Allah lost an opportunity to show off his general knowledge in this verse too. This shows that the Koran is clearly Mohammad's work (at least this verse surely is).

Verse 41:39 is just a repetition of the same non science.

>> the orbiting sun and moon,…<< - Again silly - Did you know that the sun is orbiting the galaxy. the verse in thr Quran says that each is rotating in its own orbit, not mixing in the same orbit so they cannot collide<<

This is what I wrote: ‘…Muslims claim with a straight face that the orbiting sun refers to its motion in the Milky way. Why does Muhammad (Koran) not talk of the earth's orbit anywhere in the Koran?..

Clearly you have not really read what I wrote. The Milky Way is our home galaxy. You have not told us why the Koran nowhere talks about the orbit of the earth which would have proved that Muhammad knew something the general run of Arabs did not.

>>Lastly because I am fed up writing to you - check this verse (39:5<<

"And if you were to call them to true guidance, they will not hear; and you observe them looking at you whereas they have no power to see.' Show forgiveness, enjoin equity, and avoid the ignorant." (Quran 7:198-199).

I read some verses before and after 198 and 199. I found this one interesting and gave me a clue why you want to run away from this debate as almost every Muslim who has tried his hand at defending Islam has done on this blog. Here it is: 007.200 YUSUFALI: If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah; for He heareth and knoweth (all things).

Have the suggestions and or arguments on this blog begun to assail your mind? Have you decided to take refuge in Allah from our (Satan's) whisperings?

>>) &God said do not talk to ignorants and I find it waste of timeaa<<

It is usually educated men who talk to ignorant people to improve their ways of thinking. Why is Allah asking you to do the opposite? Who is the ignorant and who the wise?

But rest assured you have not wasted your time. You have educated me a lot about the Muslim mind.

FROM YOUR POST OF SEP 10

>> the water and the soil,…<< - You see I told you, you are a very ignorant person who wants to talk about something he does not know…….Check verse 22:5 & 41:…… when the water enters in to it and then check scientific explanation and relation between water & soil, the vibrations that happens between the two. science view of point on the topic can be found in the internet.<<

This Sep 10^th reply is only slightly different from the one you posted on the 5^th. You have added something about some kind of vibrations between soil and water. The search you suggested brought up some stuff about using vibrations to compact soil, test its strength. You could help by giving some proper references. As usual with believers you seem to think that your belief alone makes your statement true.

The connection between soil, water and plants is as ancient as human history. What special agricultural science do these two verses reveal that was not known to the ancients?

>> the orbiting sun and moon,…<< - Check verse Q 21:33 "And He is it ….." ………it does not catch up the moon or overtake it in motion nor does the night overtake the day and each describes its own orbits" (Quran 36:40)

"…... He causes the earth to describe its orbit around the sun and by consequence causes He, the night to move around the day and the day to move around the night performing periodical rotation….." (Quran 39:5)

So each one has its own orbit different than the other, this is known scientifically.<<

Even the ultra-modern translation (could you let the readers know which translation you are using) you have used which strains to fit the square peg of the Koran into the round hole of reality we find the statement ‘does not catch up the moon or overtake it in motion' 36:40… Your translator does not know that the earth and moon are one body so far as the sun is concerned. There is just no question of the sun catching up with the moon. The statement could be true only if the sun and moon were in independent orbits around the earth.

The translators utter lack of knowledge of how day and night occurs can be plainly seen in his translation of 39:5 where he translates "…He causes the earth to describe its orbit around the sun and by consequence causes He, the night to move around the day and the day to move around the night performing periodical rotation,…."

Your translator makes a jump that no other translator, including the modern ones like Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel or Muhammad Asad, have dared to make, by saying the earth ‘describes its orbit around the sun'. He then makes the silly mistake of taking a leap in the dark by saying night and day is a consequence of this movement of the earth around the sun!! What he translates as periodical rotation might be taken as earth's rotation but his previous statement about the earth's orbit around the sun as cause of day and night rules that out and he is plainly talking about the periodicity of night and day.

Why did not your translator go and mangle the verse a bit further and say that the earth's orbit around the sun is what causes periodical changes in the climate. That would have given believers (non-Arabs) great satisfaction that Allah (i.e. Muhammad) was talking science. This translator probably had his secular education limited to the third grade. You need to pass at least fifth or sixth grade before you learn about how the climate and weather are caused.

>> the sweet water and the salty water,…<< - Your NO commonsense still amazes me. read about the waters of the atlantic ocean and the meditteranean. read about the nile delta pouring in the sea, read about the sweet WATER THAT COMES FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEANS.

did you know about them when you were living during jesus christ time.<<

Did Jesus drink water from the Mediterranean sea or do the Europeans drink from the Atlantic ocean? Which of them is ‘sweet' enough to drink?

What about the Nile pouring into the sea?? It has been pouring in for hundreds of thousands of years and yet the waters of the Mediterranean are full of salt even close to the delta. Why if there is an impenetrable barrier between sea and river water, the Mediterranean has not by now become drinkable, the salt water having been driven into the Atlantic? Does this require any commonsense to understand?

Where does it say in the Koran that fresh water comes from the middle of the oceans?

>>the solar system, the rocket, ......<< - read the Quran verse "And when Joseph said to his father;" O my father I saw (in a dream) eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them all prostrating themselves to me" (Quran 12:4) - At present time the scientist have classified the solar system of eleven planets (check my previous comment on this forum)<<

sTs, read this:

Plutoids are celestial bodies in orbit around the Sun at a semimajor axis greater than that of Neptune that have sufficient mass for their self-gravity to overcome rigid body forces so that they assume a hydrostatic equilibrium (near-spherical) shape, and that have not cleared the neighbourhood around their orbit. Satellites of plutoids are not plutoids themselves, even if they are massive enough that their shape is dictated by self-gravity. The two known and named plutoids are Pluto and Eris. It is expected that more plutoids will be named as science progresses and new discoveries are made. http://www.iau.org/public_press/news/release/iau0804/

Astronomers clearly expect to discover more plutoids (I hope you know that Pluto itself has been knocked off the official list of planets, and now there are only eight). When that happens will the number eleven in this verse miraculously change to twelve or thirteen to reflect the new discoveries?

>>Read this in the Quran "You surely shall ride (travel) a stage off stage " (Quran 84:19) - Meaning that we shall ride rockets that have different layers (Stages) that part from each other during the rocket mission. This verse came in the Surah call the splitting (of the Moon)<<

As expected the scholarly translators are all in confusion. Some translate stage to stage, others plane to plane, or state to state or even vessel upon vessel. The vessel to vessel translator (Muhamad Asad) seems closest to rocket stages. None of the older translators have used the word ride or ‘stage OFF stage' to mean rockets discarding empty fuel stages.

The problem with your translator's interpretation, my dear sTs, is that rocket science will not remain frozen at the twentieth century level. Your stage by stage rocket propulsion will only be found in science museums soon. Scientists (infidel ones) are already thinking of nuclear and anti-matter propulsion. Do you want to bet that rocket science will remain stuck at the Koranic level i.e the soon to be fossilized multi-stage rockets?

This Koranic verse will put an end to Islamic technology advancing further than the stage by stage state. Your engineers will not be able to break this Koranic barrier. Just as Allah has put an impenetrable barrier between sweet and salt water!!!

What about the splitting of the moon? You have been talking science in the Koran. How scientific is the possibility that the moon could have been split? If you believe that nonsense science why can't you believe that the earth is flat (there was a Saudi fatwa about the earth being flat), the sun goes round the earth and such other pre-historic science?

>>I don't know what is your problem with theses two verses 51:47 and 86:7, They are very clear to everyone - 51:47 - We are expanding, the words in Arabic are very clear, the literal translation is very clear, there is no ambiguity in here.<<

The very fact that different translators from different time periods give different meanings to the words in these verses is clear proof that there is ambiguity. Read the meaning of ambiguity in Dictionary.com. Since I do not know Arabic I cannot dispute your rendering of the Arabic word as ‘expanding' instead of ‘vastness'. Maybe dhimmi, if he reads this can help.

>>In 86:7 - The meaning of solb (from man) which means between backbones of a man- and tara'eb (from Woman) which means betwen the breast bones of the woman, The meaning is very clear - Gushing Liquid which will carry the sperms and ovum (the sperm is manufactured in the testicles) and (ovum in the ovary) - this Liquid is formed from between the backbone of the man and from between the breast bones of the woman to help the sperms and the ovum to travel. this is very clear and no confusion about it.

You need alot to learn, but I am here to help you if you sincerely want to get help.<<

sTs, I certainly need your help to understand Islamic science. Since when did Allah decide to use a gushing liquid to carry the ovum to the uterus where it is lodged for fertilization. This is what Wikipedia has to say:

‘On maturity of the ovum, the follicle and the ovary's wall rupture, allowing the ovum to escape and enter the Fallopian tube. There it travels toward the uterus, pushed along by movements of cilia on the inner lining of the tubes. This trip takes hours or days….' (Where is the gushing liquid here??)

And Allah claims a liquid producing organ lies beneath the breastbone of a woman? The only liquid producing organs anywhere near the breastbones are her mammary glands which lie above them. As I had suspected your Allah's/translator's knowledge of basic physiology is below abysmal. Here are three translation that show Allah sowing utter confusion among believers who dare to translate Him. (http://www.quranix.net/PM/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=86&SA=1)

Edip Yuskel: It comes out from between the spine and testicles

Muhammad Asad: Issuing fvrom between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman]

Rashad Khalifa: From between the spine and viscera.

In Muhammad Asad spine is missing and pelvic arch appears by magic.

In Rashad Khalifa you have all of the contents of the cavities of the body (Viscera: The internal organs of the body, specifically those within the chest (as the heart or lungs) or abdomen (as the liver, pancreas or intestines).

Is this what you get from Allah's promise that His Koran is a clear book easy to understand?

As to the reference to the backbone, it stretches from the skull to the anus and so covers pretty much whatever is in the body. Great science in the Koran!

>>You need alot to learn, but I am here to help you if you sincerely want to get help.<<

You have helped me to learn a lot, sTs. You have conveyed true Islamic knowledge. It tells me why Muslims will never contribute anything much to earthly knowledge as they have much superior heavenly stuff in the Koran.

Whenever scientists come up with some new discoveries the Koranic words magically transform themselves to show that that is exactly what it was saying all the time and previous translations and tafsirs must be trashed.

In trying to transform your holy book of signs into a book of science your scholars have landed themselves in an unholy mess.

Regards

Plato

P.S. In one of your posts to M Tovey (http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/138812) you have made mention of the word spider in the Koran. I checked and found this about spider webs in the Koran:

YUSUFALI: 29:41 The parable of those who take protectors other than Allah is that of the spider, who builds (to itself) a house; but truly the flimsiest of houses is the spider's house;- if they but knew.

The flimsiest house is made of the strongest fibre. It is even supposed to be stronger than steel of similar thickness. This flimsy house captures prey much bigger than the spider herself. And Allah seems to have forgotten that the web He had designed for the spider is meant for it to catch food not to house it. The web is not a house it is a trap.

Sadly, for Muslims Allah has ignored them, and the miracles are being discovered by infidels who have never studied the Koran. Muslim scholars who have been pouring through the Koran for more than a thousand years are unable to make any discoveries from the science in it. If the miracles of the Koran you have listed from 1 to 25 are really there why could not Muslims come forth and increase our knowledge of Allah's creation instead of infidels having to spend huge sums of money and effort to show Muslims that the Koran is a miraculous book.

As you told M. Tovey ‘Do you comprehend? Alas'

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