sTs: Islam corrupts logic and reason – Part I

Submitted by Plato (India), Sep 22, 2008 at 22:49

sTs, you wrote:

>>This will be the last reply, if I don't see any improvement in your logic<<

sTs, check to see if my logic has improved. If it has continue replying or else cease and desist.

1. >>It is already proven that the bible is corrupt book, even admitted by the churches<< - Now reply on the corruption of the bible as I mentioned in this forum. I have showed many in different occasions that the Bible is corrupt. can you refute these corruptions<<

sTs, I am an atheist and it does not bother me to acknowledge that the Bible is not a book from god or that there are corruptions in it. The Bible being corrupt may well be true but how does that help to make the Koran uncorrupt? Also bear in mind that the Koran itself appeals to the Bible to authenticate it. Muslims appeal to Ahmad, paraclete and other vague reference which only they are able to interpret as foreshadowing the coming of your Prophet. This would mean the Koran also could be corrupt!

2. To begin with the Koran in your possession is not an exact copy of the original compiled by Abu Bakr/Othman - To answer your silly argument - do you know that people who memorised the Quran never ceased - the chain never been broken - ………….when the punctuation were introduced their were many followers of Mohammad were still alive and they memorized the Quran by heart - so their pronounciation was excellent. So much for your logic.

Let us examine whose logic is at fault here. You claim the Koran in your hands to be a book that is an exact copy of the one preserved in heaven, (as written down on leather, bones etc during the prophet's time which had no diacritical marks). But you accept that the diacritical marks were put in later so what you have now is not the one that Abu Bakr or Othman had. Simple logic. If the problem was with the Arabic language Allah could have revealed it in some other language. Allah could have accelerated the process of improvement of the Arabic script or waited till the Arabs themselves did it to reveal the Koran if the one in heaven has those marks.

You further claim that the Koran is preserved perfectly in its recitation than its written form. This means that the written Koran, whether the Egyptian version, the Tunisian version or Al Qaeda version cannot be the authorized one by Allah. Also it brings up the question of why the Prophet himself approved of it being written down by his followers. Or why his favourite companions took the trouble of collecting the Koran if Allah intended that it be preserved by recitation.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that when the early Arabs went on their conquering spree many of these perfect Koran reciters were killed and the fear that there would no longer be many who remembered it made the Caliph take steps to have it compiled in written form. Ask a simple question. Why did Allah with all his power and knowledge of the future not prevent these reciters from being killed in battle? The possible reasons are 1) Allah knew and wanted the Koran to be compiled as a book 2) He knew the book form is less amenable to corruption than word of mouth transmission 3. Allah realized these companions of the prophet were reciting their own version of the Koran and so had them killed.

>>3. calling God's creation ‘najees' - Yes the athiests and polythiests are "Janas"(Unclean) - they are not clean - they don't wash after going to toilet, they are not circumcised, is not shit "najas" where is the problem of vcalling unclean people najas even if they are God's creation - but they are unclean - SO WHAT? - silly logic<<

sTs, you have shown us Islam in all its glory. A clean skin, especially of their private parts is what raises Muslims a notch above the rest of humanity (include circumcision)! Your washing up after a visit to the toilet results only in superficial cleanliness. Part of the najas ‘shit' and urine still remains in your large intestines and bladder.

How are you going to send soap water up into those two offending organs to clean them out? Enema? And of what use would that be as shit and urine are being formed by the body 24x7. Even as you superficially wash a few body parts during wudu the shit and urine is still very much a part of you. Why does Allah accept your prayers when your insides are still polluted with shit and urine? Can you find anything wrong with this logic?

>>4. Allah's creation, the Jews, pigs and apes? - seems you are unlearned, you talk in Islam and you have no clue what you are talking about - in one incident, God turned some Jews into pigs and monkeys, becvause they disobeyed. not all the jews and that was long time ago<<

sTs you have educated me about Jews being turned into pigs and apes because they were disobedient in one incident. That leaves me to wonder whether the Jews who came later, because of the lesson Allah taught them, were obedient and did not give Allah a chance to show off His magical skills to later generations. Why did Muhammad then, and Muslims now curse Jews?

Jews are not being turned into pigs and apes before our eyes now for disobedience. How many pigs and apes are there in Israel? Surely the Israelis are among the most disobedient for driving out Allah's favourite people from Palestine. Or could it be that what they are doing is Allah's will?

What was the point of Allah exercising His magical powers during that one incident? Did He not know with his knowledge of the future that He was wasting His magic skills as the Jews would not be impressed and would carry on as before?

>>5.paradise in exchange for killing or being killed in Allah's cause? - It is in the bible too, who is killed is a martyr and will go to paradise , and in here it does not refering to any killing, it refers to kill those who wants to kill you, (the aggressors)- so much for your learning,<<

By this logic the Crusaders who came calling (to aid their co-religionists) on the Muslims and got killed also would be now enjoying paradise on the promise of the Bible.

Why have you not given us the translation which shows that the reference is to those who want to kill you. That brings up the question of the Muslims who went to far away India and hundreds of thousands of Hindu warriors killed muslims or were killed by Muslims in battle defending themselves against the believers in Allah. Will Allah open the doors of paradise to these people who died defending themselves against the Muslim killers?

sTs, don't abandon this blog as you have threatened to once in a while. I am getting a good education from you. Learning can be a lot of fun, especially coming from a learned Muslim.

>>6. allowing the collection of booty from defeated people, including their women and children taken as slaves - This is similar as in the bible - why you deny some and agree with some?<<

Have you thought about what you have said? It means that you accept that Muslims can collect booty and take women and children as slaves. Your only justification for it is that the Bible also allows it. So what was the point in bringing down the Koran if it was not going to ban the corrupt practices that had crept into the Bible? For surely Allah cannot possibly allow the practice of taking women and children as slaves. The only other possibility I can see is that this verse is an interpolation (corruption) in the Koran. QED?

>>7. the reasons for collecting ‘zakat' is to bribe unbelievers to accept Islam - Absolutely WRONG - who gave this translation is lying to you - it means take from the richa nd give the poor , the poor relatives, people who are travelling, for every one who is poor and new in Islam, - Can you tell me what Christian missionaries do ??? they give money to who convert from Islam to Christianity - this is happening in large scale in Africa. Is it NOT?<<

This means that Yusuf Ali, Pikthal, Shakir, Muhammad Asad, Rashad Khalifa are all enemies of Islam for distorting the meaning of this verse in the Koran. You could have given us a translation by a true of friend of Islam of this verse to correct our understanding. You should give it to us without the translators interpretation in brackets as adding to Allah's words is blasphemy.

I notice that you have included those who are ‘new in Islam'. Why did you include this category? What if some those who are new were already rich? Can't you see that the intention in this case would be as a bribe to stop them from wavering and apostatizing?

After your prophet, Muslims have a sword hanging over those who waver from their faith to keep them in the straight and bloody path of Islam.

Once again, like your justifying Allah allowing Muslims to take booty and slaves, you are justifying the disgraceful practice of bribes for belief by bringing in Christian wrong doing. Why do Muslims not understand that because Christians or Jews commit a crime it does not in any way justify Islamic crimes?

>>8. collect the jiziya tax from unbelievers and humiliate them in the process - IT shows your poor education and understanding of Islam, during the early days of Islam, …….- they have to pay an amount for their protection, this is not done today<<

In the early days of Islam there would be Muslims, Pagans, Christians, Jews, a smattering of atheists. Now where did the atheists spring from in enough numbers to attack Muslims? My poor education no doubt has kept me ignorant about huge numbers of atheists in ancient times.

I would also have to conclude from your statement that Muslims can defy this requirement to collect jiziya now as you say it is not done today. Read 9:29 it is an order from Allah. So you have abrogated one verse. That is one verse down how many more to go? Did the Afghans collect this tax from non-Muslims when atheistic Soviet Russia attacked?

sTs, let me check. Is my education and understanding proceeding well?

>>All what you mentioned above does not show that the Quran is Corrupt by the people - show me how the Quran is corrupt by the people. it is still the same book as descended on Mohammad.<<

Have I wasted all that time and energy for nothing? Let me summarise in case I have been verbose. Allowing Muslims to collect booty and keep women and children as slaves is not corruption in the Koran? Can Allah the monst beneficent allow such a horror to happen?Using bribes to keep new Muslims from apostasising is not corruption? Meaning being changed to suit the latest discoveries of science is a sign that its message can be fiddled with to suit the convenience of the translator/interpreter. That means the Koran is corruptible. What non-Arabic readers (the vast majority of Muslims) are reading is corrupted versions of the Koran. So what they practice of Islam is corrupt.

>>The Quran is understood very clearly, however there are some verses that are disputed on their translation,<<

That means none or at most only one translation can be the correct one. Again this means that the Islam that non-Arabs practice could be fake. Now if the Koran is understood VERY CLEARLY how can some verses be disputed on translation. If the meaning that emerges after translation is different from the meaning Allah intended then it clearly means that Allah has not conveyed His message clearly. Logical?? The Koran also says there should be no dispute about the Koran but you claim that some verses are disputed even by its scholars (6:68).

Let me also remind you that tafsirs by Arab scholars also have differences. What happened to the clarity you claim for the Koran in these cases.

>>but they are not critical verses, they do not change our practice of Islam or worship to God, and they will be answered in due course of time, when new technologies emerge.<<

All these technologies that are emerging to reveal the wonders of the Koran are coming from infidel scientists. Why are Muslims unable to discover them in the Koran themselves and have to wait eagerly for unbelievers to reveal them? And despite such discoveries they are not converting en mass to Islam. Strange are the ways of Allah.

>>The translation is something else, the bible was corrupted and the translation to other languages made it even worse. <<

Ask yourself how a clear message can turn out unclear in translations by Koranic scholars. Since the Bible is the word of Allah how can it not be clear in whatever language it is delivered. Also how can the word of Allah, the Bible, be corrupted unless He Himself allowed it? You are throwing doubt on Allah's power to convey His message clearly in whatever language He wished to use. This is the Koran confirming that two Books (i.e. Allah's Word) were sent down before the Koran: 006.156 YUSUFALI: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"

The Koran is saying that Allah's words were delivered to Jews and Christians. Tell your readers how Allah's words got corrupted in the first two instances. Did Allah acquire the power to preserve His word only during the Prophet's time?

>>The Quran is not a corrupted book and it is still the reference in Arabic, people which their good intentions or bad intentions translate the Quran they make errors in the translations………. doea not change the reality that the Quranin its original text is pure, not harmed, it is preserved for all times.<<

This means that the Koran's claim that it is protected by Allah Himself or Herself is untrue. You claim that it is the vocalization of the words of the Koran that has remained unchanged and so the Koran in your hand cannot be considered to be authentic. Only the vocalization handed down over 1400 years can be considered uncorrupt. The one billion or so non-Arabs have been left in the lurch by Allah's inability to convey the Koran's true meaning in any other language than Arabic. Is it Allah's plan that people all over the world should become scholars in classical Arabic recitation of the Koran in order to understand what He is saying?

>>(22:2, 26:192-195) - what is the connection? -<<

Read what I have replied to your comment above again for the connection. It does not need much education to see it.

Regards

Plato

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