Nura: Allah micro-manages you even before you were born. What does that make you?

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 19, 2008 at 06:26

Nura, you wrote:

>>The West does care who we serve. WHO WE ALL SERVE! Yea, they don't care as long as you are willing to die for the agenda of the elite. If you continue to eat the garbage they feed you every day. You must have indigestion.<<

This is some kind of gobbledygook which I an unable to decipher.

>>It's all about control. Why do you think that France outlawed the scarf?<<

Talking about control, what does Allah do except micro-manage your affairs even before you are born by claiming that He has foreknowledge of your fate i.e He has decided exactly what you will do and think? After you are born He controls you to the extent of deciding who you can have as friends (004.144
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?).

He demands that you pray in a particular direction forgetting that on a spherical earth almost everyone will be praying in a direction different from the Kaaba. You need a flat earth to ensure that everyone is facing the Kaaba

France outlawing the scarf is such a big issue for you? Saudi Arabia insists on an abaya for every woman above 13. Eating has been made into a crime in many Muslim nations during Ramadan. You can be jailed for being alone with a member of the opposite sex unless you are closely related in many Muslim countries. The scarf is banned only in certain locations. There is no general ban on it.

>>Why do I get crazy looks when I go to the grocery store?<<

Thank your brothers sisters in Islam for that. There is no country that has escaped the attention of Muslims seeking to impose Allah's will on them. Those looks are that of people driven crazy by what they read and see on the news everyday about people dressed like you.

>>Islam represents FREEDOM. Freedom from the bondage of societal stratification, capitalism, the enslavement of the conscious. This is why it is hated.<<

When the Prophet attacked caravans, neighbouring tribes and killed old men and women Muslims consider it was in self-defence. When a Muslim beats up his wife your imams tell you it is for the family's good. So it is not surprising that when a Muslim finds her/his religion is all about control, claustrophobic restrictions, and enslavement of women at home etc she/he thinks it is a religion of freedom.

There are more than 50 Muslim majority countries. How many of them have freedom of belief, speech or autonomous behaviour. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Muslim countries have the least freedom barring a few.

The Koran informs you that there is stratification (ranks) even in heaven, that he has favourites among his prophets (2:253). Why does it bother you that there is stratification on earth?

On earth Allah discriminates between believers and infidels.41:1 SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.

This means the good works done by the Buddha, Gandhi and Mother Teresa are all so much garbage as far as this god with the mighty ego is concerned. They all end up in hell and people like the dictators Islam suffers from will spend some time in it and then be transferred to heaven. Such a beautiful religion, is Islam, Nura.

Allah also enslaves human conscience by telling us not to question Him and His prophet (058.020 YUSUFALI: Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated.)

The Koran tells us that we are subject to Allah's will in what we do and what we believe, so what freedom of conscience are you talking about? Islam is not hated because it stands for any kind of freedom but because it is the antithesis of freedom. It is the subjugation and submission of our will to Allah. Muslims call that freedom. Infidels call that rank hypocrisy.

>> We won't prostrate to these false deities. <<

What makes Allah a true deity? The Koran saying so? The Koran tells you to prostrate yourself towards a black stone and millions do it five times a day. It tells you to travel to Mecca at least once in your lifetime and do all that idolators do and worse. You make blood sacrifices of millions of animals to please your ‘true' deity. You throw stones at an imaginary devil. You circumambulate a black stone like any idol worshipper in India. You run between Safa and Marwa because Allah tells you they are His symbols (___)

This deity of yours makes all sorts of false claims. He claims He knows what will be in your mind even before you are born. If so why then did He create you? He could have decided your place in heaven or hell as soon as he conceived you in His mind. He claims he is merciful but yet sets wicked men amongst us to misguide us and lead us to hell

006.123 YUSUFALI: Thus have We placed leaders in every town, its wicked men, to plot (and burrow) therein: but they only plot against their own souls, and they perceive it not.

>>The Muslim world cares not if you believe in what we believe contrary to popular myth.<<

That is a curious statement. The prophet whom you are supposed to emulate cared very much whether people believed in what he believed. He spent his life proselytizing. He took the sword to those who refused to accept Islam and claimed to have received revelations to inflict his belief on the unbelievers. Read:

048.028
YUSUFALI: It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.

058.021
YUSUFALI: Allah has decreed: "It is I and My messengers who must prevail": For Allah is One full of strength, able to enforce His Will.

If Muslims did not care whether we retained our unbelief why do Muslims do dawa ? Why then do you paste stickers on your cars that say ‘Read the Koran, the final revelation', or ‘Islam is the solution'? Without dawa (both non-violent and violent) how come there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world including China and South America. Are they all Arab settlers?

>> I think most Muslims believe the West is hopeless and destined for damnation. <<

Very true. Since unbelievers are destined for damnation anyway some of your brothers and sisters want to send us on our way as soon as possible by bombing, shooting and any other means that come to hand.

>>I, on the other hand, am a bit more optimistic. If I found the light, anyone can.<<

If your optimism means Muslims will also find the light and keep you from dispatching us unbelievers to our damnation then it is very welcome.

>>The Muslim world wants to be left the hell alone, pardon my French.<<

That is a sentiment that unbelievers have about the Muslim world too. First of all modern day Muslims interfere in almost every non-Islamic country in the form of insurgencies, bombing of innocents (Thailand, Philippines, India, China) and demand to implement sharia (Canada, Australia, Britain, India) even when they are a small minority.

Second of all your religion itself demands that you interfere in every infidel nation and you have the nice example of your prophet to follow in this regard. If you know your sira, Muhammad sent out threatening letters to rulers far and wide inviting them to Islam with a sting attached as a post script which said they had better accept Islam or else! (refer the letter to Julanda brothers of Oman). The Koran also urges the prophet and believers to make Islam triumph over all other religions (4:28, 58:21) and it tells them that they have an unbreakable contract with Allah to gain entry into paradise if they sacrifice their lives or that of infidels to achieve His ‘holy' purpose (9:111).

Nura if you are willing and able to let go of these unacceptable teachings of your Almighty Allah you will find that infidels like us will be able to live in peace with Islam. But if you insist on coming heavy with your preaching about Islam being the final solution or creating disorder and sedition in our countries then you can expect to have an unpleasant time both in your host countries and in your native nations.

>> The West, Big Brother to the world, is and has constantly interfered with Islamic societies. Research history. Anyone they don't like is ousted, example, SADDAM. They tried to oust Castro.<<

The West only ousted Saddam. Muslims take over countries whole sale and convert them to Islam. Read what happened to Persia, Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, North Africa …. Yes do research history, Nura. Islam's non-negotiable demand is submission to the Almighty Allah.

Have you asked yourself what Islam did when the Muslim world was the big brother for quite some time in the past? Read some real history not the maulana-vetted variety.

>>Your God does not deceive? Then why would he create a triune God when he said to not associate partners with him? ……..If Jesus died for your sins, why are there still sins? Why do innocent people die?

I will answer my own questions; I'll probably do a better job. Either there is a lie in there somewhere or there is a misunderstanding.<<

The finer points of Christian theology I leave you to argue with your fellow monotheists. But your answers are interesting.

>>Allah says: "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things." [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

Allah says: "If it had been your Lord's will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?" [Sûrah Yûnus: 99]

This is proof that Allah has ordained free will for man. He does not, in this life, force anyone to believe and he forbids such actions from man!<<

Oh really?? Let us do a tafsir of these two verses. Apart from saying that the Koran should be read in context Muslims claim that it cannot be understood by reading isolated verses and its whole message is to be taken into consideration.

2:256 which says there should be no compulsion in religion is in sharp contrast to 3.85 which says ‘If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; ….'

You then quote Allah who says in Yunus 99: "If it had been your Lord's will, all of the people on Earth would have believed…."

By corollary this would mean that Allah wills that unbelievers do not believe. Why then does Allah have a problem with infidels? He repeats his position that unbelievers are unbelievers because He wishes them to be born and remain unbelievers. Read:

If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance (32:13)

006.125
YUSUFALI: Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted

006.107
YUSUFALI: If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false gods:…

All these verses conclusively prove that Allah has kept control of who will be believers and who infidels. Yet you say that Allah has given us free will. The logic of your reasoning is so Islamic that unbelievers like me are left to wonder at the unfathomable depths of the Muslim mind.

>>It really would defeat the whole purpose of our creation, which is to believe in an unseen God. This is why THERE ARE NO FORCED CONVERSIONS IN ISLAM.<<

Who told you that the purpose of creation is to believe in an unseen god? Because some human like you or me claimed that a representative of this god spoke to him and told him this is the purpose of creation? Why would you believe any such thing without him giving you proof? If I made a similar claim would you believe me and why not?

To claim that there are no forced conversions in Islam is of a piece with Muslim claims that Islam is a religion of peace, that the prophet was an ideal man, that Allah is a loving deity against all evidence. Read 9:29
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

Why does Allah order Muslims to fight the Jews and Christians till they acknowledge Islam? What do you think acknowledging Islam means??? Why does Allah tell his Prophet in 058.021 that ‘Allah has decreed: "It is I and My messengers who must prevail":'

>>Forced and Conversion is an oxymoron. It's not possible to MAKE someone Muslim.<<

Oxymoron according the Web dictionary means: Conjoining contradictory terms (as in 'deafening silence')

What is contradictory about ‘forced' and ‘conversion'? Hold a sword to the throat of a person and ask him to repeat the shahada (as the invading Arabs did in many countries, including India) and voila he is a Muslim.

>>Only Allah can choose who will be among the righteous. It is an honor that most do not receive. It also proves that the deception is at the hands of the individual who ignores the signs of the existence of Allah.<<

I have come across some amazing examples of Muslim reasoning but this one probably takes the cake. You start by claiming that Allah chooses who will be among the righteous. This would mean that neither the righteous nor the unrighteous had a choice in the matter. Then you jump to the conclusion that this decision of Allah as to who are among the righteous and who the unrighteous proves that the deception is at the hands of the poor victim of Allah's will. Amazing does not begin to describe the logic you have used to come to this conclusion.

>>For example, many Philosophers and scientists are deceived by their knowledge, that Allah gave them, into thinking that God does not exist at all.<<

Another beautiful example of Muslim logic. The knowledge that philosophers and scientists posses was given to them by Allah. This Allah-given knowledge leads them to think that Allah does not exist. If so what is Allah-given knowledge worth? Zilch. Allah-given knowledge cannot lead people to Him. Can Satan help?

Your Allah does not seem to know whether He is coming or going. Can you wonder why these philosophers and scientists think that this Allah does not exist at all?

>> It is these people who have been deceived, by Allah's knowledge, because of disease in their hearts. It is their fault alone.<<

Islamic gobbledygook we have seen from Muslim posters here but this one really is a gem. Here is what Nura is saying. People have been deceived by the
Great Deceiver Himself and this deceiver succeeds not because of the power of his knowledge but because of the disease in the unbelievers' hearts. The knowledge that Allah imparts is unable to cure diseased hearts (also donated by Allah). A case of an irresistible force meeting an immovable object!

The diseased hearts of the disbelievers are responsible for their unbelief. Nura, what are you trying to say? Allah has given them diseased hearts so that the knowledge he has given them deceives them? Have you asked why He would choose to give such knowledge to diseased hearts? A case of confusion worse confounded if there ever was one.

>> Allah could lead them if it were his will; by he allows them to be deceived in the name of free will. This is what the Surah was saying.<<

Since it is not Allah's will to lead unbelievers to belief it must follow that it is His will that they remain unbelievers. You conclude that this free will Allah has given us deceives us into unbelief. I just love Islamic reasoning and logic. Maulanas use it to soften the brains of little Muslims and Muslimas and then compress it into the tiny mould of Islam.

>>Christians and Jews invented Fascism!<<

No they did not! Allah creates everything, so it must include Fascism. Nura, fault this reasoning. You claimed before that humans are incapable of acquiring knowledge on their own so how canChristians and Jews invent Fascism?

>>Don't try to blame the Crusades, Spanish inquisition, World War I, World War II, the Jewish holocaust, The Palestinian Holocaust, The black holocaust and American slavery, the Korean war, the cold war, The Indian wars, Vietnam, and IRAQ WARS on Muslims.<<

No Nura, we don't. We blame them on Allah. Remember He is responsible for everything

>>In fact, who where the aggressors and invading armies in all of these circumstances? Christians and Jews are the most war making people in the history of man.<<

You seem to think that only Christians, Jews and Muslims count as humans. What about the Hindus, Buddhists, Zoarastrians and people of other polytheistic beliefs? Muslims invaded and practically wiped out literally millions of these people. Were they animals or weeds among humans without souls to be cut down to cleanse the world for Allah ____?

Also do keep in mind that Allah willed them to be Christians and Jews.

>> Don't talk to me about Italy, Stalin, Adolf, those were people of your faith.<<

Your faith is an offshoot of Stalin and Hitler's faith. Your faith draws sustenance from their faith. Without the torah and the bible Islam does not have a leg to stand on. You believe in the same fairy tales they believe. A man being swallowed by a whale and living to tell the tale. Another man talking to birds and ants and threatening to execute a bird for disobedience. LOL.

>>You need to watch your side too for the anti-Christ that will come from the friends of people who colonized the ENTIRE EARTH at one point of time or another. Who are you fooling? The West is in no place to scream FASCISM.<<

Islamo-Christian gobbledygook.

>>I have lived in an Islamic country, they are quite modern. They actually have technology that is not available here!<<

Really? Name one.

>> I was very surprised at how advanced these societies were. <<

I bet you were. The tallest building in the world, the largest shopping mall in the world can be found here. All built with foreign technology and foreign hands.

>>Of course most are not as rich as industrialized nations, but Europeans and Americans have investments and vacation properties in most of these countries.<<

Westerners having vacation properties in these countries is a sign of advancement??

>> In fact, some of the richest countries in the world are Muslim so what are you talking about. You have been misinformed son.<<

Name some. Before you dothat, do a count of the Muslim population of these countries as opposed to other Islamic countries.

Regards

Plato

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".