Nura: Are we getting anywhere despite time well spent? Part I

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 27, 2008 at 04:36

Nura, you wrote:

>>One the greatest gifts to humanity is existence.<<

Mere existence is a gift? Bacteria also exist without knowing they exist. Consciousness that one exists (and following from it self-consciousness) is a gift – an accidental fallout from the workings of the laws of evolution.

>> Even Atheists admit this.<<

Many atheists do but no atheists will admit that existence is a gift to the suffering little girl whose example I gave you.

>> Now that you exist, would you chose not exist?<<

If I were that little girl I would gladly choose not to exist.

>>You cannot even imagine not existing.<<

Of course I can, I did not exist before I was conceived in my mother's womb.

>>Do you ever wonder why the imagination cannot perceive not existing?<<

I did once. But having read a little of evolution I now understand why. Evolution has ingrained in us the fear of death without which you and I will not be here discussing it. Evolution has also ingrained in all living beings a sense of purpose, for again without this we would not exist. A tiger forages far and wide with a purpose. To find food. It wouldn't move an inch otherwise and would perish and leave no progeny.

Humans also need to perceive a purpose for everything. Unlike the tiger they can wonder about the purpose of life itself. When they see death staring at them at every turn they see life as a purposeless existence. That is what people like Prophet Muhammad took advantage of. He and people of his ilk spun a story of a life after death. The life after death being a reward or punishment for what one believed and how one lived on earth. With the fear of death and the necessity for purpose built into us by evolution this kind of story is swallowed hook line and sinker by those with weak minds.

>> There is a philosophy that greatest fear is that we do not exist at all. This proves that humanity loves its existence, although it may not understand the reason for it.<<

That going out of existence is a great fear and we love to live are true but Darwin has shown us the reasons for the fear of death and the love of life. Simply put, as I pointed out before, without them we would not be here debating these points.

>>I will propose that the reason why you cannot imagine yourself away is that humans are destined to become immortal beings. A part of us never dies, in death.<<

Your proposal does not hold water for the simple reason that because you or I cannot imagine ourselves ceasing to exist forever does not destine us to be immortal. You have not demonstrated a logical connection.

What kind of a conclusion have you given? I cannot imagine myself being run over if I jump into the oncoming traffic. Does that prevent a truck from hitting me?

>>You are bringing, "if there is a God, why is there suffering" argument?<<

Yes, that indeed is the question. Try answering it yourself without having to fall back on the Koran and hadith. Allah has given you a brain with which to think for yourself.

>>I guess Hinduism would argue that this girl has bad Karma. My first answer would be that It is only through adversity that the righteousness can be distinguished from the disbelievers:<<

It is far better than postulating an all-powerful, most merciful and benevolent Allah who chooses to let the girl suffer to distinguish believers from unbelievers. Allah is making a mockery of what benevolence and mercy mean.

>>[QS 10:12]….. But when We have solved his trouble, he passeth on his way as if he had never cried to Us for a trouble that touched him!....!<<

Did Allah solve the little girl's problem?

>>[QS 11:10] But if We give him a taste of (Our) favours after adversity hath…..<<

What favour did Allah give the little girl?

>>[QS 30:33] When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of Mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord,-<<

Millions of children like the girl would have cried for mercy from Allah, did He listen and give them a taste of His mercy?

>>[QS 30:36] ……… evil afflicts them because of what their (own) hands have sent forth, behold, they are in despair!<<

Did the little girl bring on the evil of her own cancer?

[QS 2:214………: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!

Tell that to the suffering people of this world, like the little girl, whose only hope of help is death.

>>[QS 2:153] O ye who believe! seek help with patient perseverance and prayer; for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.<<

This is just a cry from Allah about His own powerlessness. Be patient until death takes you, little girl with incurable cancer, and all will be taken care of. LOL.

>>[QS 2:155] Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger,…<<

Another admission from Allah that He is powerless to help.

>>[QS 2:156] Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-<<

Who else but those with weak minds will make such an idiotic statement. This is an invitation by Allah not to fight adversity and accept one's fate.

>>[QS 16:122] And We gave him Good in this world, and he will be, in the Hereafter, in the ranks of the Righteous.<<

What good did Allah give the little girl in this world?

>>[QS 16:53-55] ………Yet, when He removes the distress from you, behold! some of you turn to other gods to join with their Lord-(As if) to show their ingratitude for the favours we have bestowed on them! then enjoy (your brief day): but soon will ye know (your folly)!<<

What about those whose distress He does not remove, like the little girl. Should she show gratitude to Allah for making her suffer? And a nice little threat in typical Allah-style at the end.

>>[QS 29:2] Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?<<

No respite even for you Nura, despite your belief in Allah.

>>[QS 29:3] We did test those before them, and Allah will certainly know those who are true from those who are false.<<

Allah is telling you He will torture people in this life and if they turn away He has His yet more torture waiting for them.

>>[QS 22:11] …… they lose both this world and the Hereafter: that is loss for all to see!<<

Just a repetition of QS 29:3

>>[QS 22:35] To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned, are filled with fear, who show patient perseverance over their afflictions, ……<<

There you have it in black and white. Allah wants to fill your hearts with fear and bear patiently whatever tortures He cares to throw at you to test you. Your Allah is so benevolent!

>>[Qs 3:186] ……. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs.<<

Guard against the evil that Allah throws at you and persevere in your belief that He is merciful and benevolent and reap the rewards after you are dead!

>>[QS 64:14] O ye who believe! Truly, among your wives and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if ye forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.<<

Well, I will be damned. Allah is asking you to be forgiving of your enemies for once, if they are your wives and children. And He will forgive you for that. This is of course contradicting the verse where Allah orders you not to be friendly with your kith and kin if they are your enemies.

009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong

Do we have a fine distinction here about it applying only to fathers and brothers? 64:14 seems to suggest that as a father one can be protectors of one's children even if they are your enemies.

Regards

Plato

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