Nura: More about survival of the fittest, Occam's razor and I am up against a brick wall. Part III

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 25, 2008 at 02:47

Nura, you wrote:

>>Suicide has nothing to do with the brain.<<

Why do people with depression commit suicide if it has nothing to do with the brain. Those on anti-depressants don't. A chemical acted on the brain to block the suicidal tendencies.

>>It is the loss of hope that people commit suicide.<<

Very true. The little girl with cancer would prefer to die because Allah gives her no hope in this life. Only in the hereafter can she hope to partake of Allah's pie in the sky.

>>Despite whatever suffering happens to most people, they do not commit suicide.<<

Haven't you heard of desperate pleas for release from the pain Allah inflicts on them in the hope of getting a slice of his pie in the sky?

>>It's interesting that the most affluent nations in the world has the highest level of suicide, is this natural selection?<<

More people in affluent nations live long and are prone to old-age painful illnesses. The affluent nations also have more educated people who know that an after life is a chimera born of hopelessness. When things look bleak they rather end their misery than wait for Allah's mercy to descend on them.

And yes natural selection does come in if they commit suicide before they procreate. I leave that as a little exercise in evolution for you.

>>As for the others they were disappointed with the health and wealth that Allah doled out making them unbearably sad and deciding to end it all and make an early claim on His promise of rewarding those who suffer in this life.

As I stated earlier, affluent nations have the higher level of suicide, so this argument does not hold.<<

?? People in affluent countries also suffer from incurable diseases and extreme poverty. Poverty is relative. A rich man in Somalia will be considered destitute in Switzerland.

>>You also seem to have forgotten that Allah claims even suicides are a result of His decision written before the poor souls were born.

How could I forget that Allah is all knowing! He knows what we will do, we don't.<<

Cool. Allah knows before the suicide is born that he will commit the crime. This means that Allah created him to commit suicide at a pre-determined time. Can you dispute this??

>>Where in your posts did you establish this proof? The fact that YOU cannot think about ceasing to exist after death? I grant you that it is Islamically foolproof evidence for life after death. But to unbelievers like me you will have to do better than that. As we are earth bound we need down-to-earth logic to be convinced not the logic of heaven.

I proved this with the fact that your existence does not end with death. <<

Is that a fact?? A fact is something objective which everyone who cares to can verify. Which soul has returned to tell you its body is being pummeled in the grave and is waiting for judgment day to be consigned to heaven or hell?

>> Consciousness is not the sole proof of exsistence.<<

Consciousness is the tool used to prove existence. If there were no conscious beings who (except Allah) will be bothered about whether existence is real or not?

>>The Koran does say life after death is very biological. You have wine, women, boys like pearls, rivers of milk and honey and fruit of all kinds. And why can't I deny there is life after death??

There are many aspects to life after death; the physical and metaphysical.<<

Allah has explained only the physical aspects of life after death. Remember all those ayas you helpfully posted describing the sybaritic pleasures of paradise. How many verses can you find describing the metaphysical (=Without material form or substance) aspects of heaven?

>> You can't prove that consciousness ends after death. How would you know then absolutely?<<

If you can disprove that what I am writing to you are actually dictated to me by the Archangel Michael then I will accept that I cannot prove consciousness ends after death. Do you know absolutely that the angel Michael is not dictating what I am writing?

>>You can deny all you like. You will know one day won't you?<<

From my perspective the day I die will also end my consciousness. If you are right you will be able to enjoy the tortures that the merciful Allah has reserved for me for my disbelief.

>>>Consciousness stops when you are in a coma, when someone knocks you on the head, it stops when chemicals are injected into you. It stops when you are in deep sleep. Why not when you are dead which is a much worse condition than any of the above?

There are many reason why you are wrong. Consciousness does not stop in any of these situations. It is only altered. There is still thought during a coma, some people can remember hearing their loved one talk to them. Thought exists during sleep also. Any state where their thought, there is consciousness <<

If you do not recollect what you thought when you were asleep or in a coma (what did those in a coma recollect?) what is the worth of that kind of consciousness? A man in a coma for 20 years wakes up. Does his lying like a vegetable on a bed count as his being conscious? LOL

>> It is my belief that thought also exist after death, therefore consciousness, although this consciousness is different from the temporal world.<<

You can believe what you want but that does not make what you believe into a fact.

>>He brought the world into existence because He desired to be worshipped. A chicken and egg problem all over again.

Allah was worshiped far before we existed. He was worshiped by far more obedient creatures who does not have the corruption and evil that a human soul is inclined to.<<

Yes the stars, the moon, the plants and dinosaurs too worshipped Allah before we existed. The sun sending out flares is worship, the moon going round the earth is worship, the plants swaying in the breeze is worship the dinosaurs who roared in the forest is worship. ROTFL.

Humans are creatures of Allah. If they are inclined to corruption and evil then it is because Allah made them to be evil. Remember what He told Satan (7:14-17). Remember Allah says He has created evil (113:2)

>> I am grateful for my existence and do not distain it. The chicken and egg question is only a problem for people who not believe in God. When Allah wills something, he only says "be" and it is. There is your solution.<<

Who willed Allah to "be"????

>>Let me repeat: evolution is not "concerned" about anything, including survival of the species. Unless you understand this point clearly it is pointless going on about evolution.

I will repeat, you are wrong! <<

You repeating it ad infinitum won't make a difference. Only when science shows that evolution acts consciously will I be wrong.

>>The whole basis for evolution is survival!<<

Why are you stating the obvious?

>>What would be the outcome if humans got ride of an evolutionary creation.

This statement has gone over my head. What does it mean?

I was establishing, as evolutionist has, that if religion evolved into the conscious of humans, than there must have been a necessary reason for it. My question is, how can you distain, an evolutionary invention?<<

The human appendix is also an evolved organ. When it starts acting up surgeons remove it and the patient's life is saved. I hope you get the picture about the usefulness or otherwise of religion.

>>I should have written ‘I can imagine myself not being run over if I jump into the oncoming traffic. Does that prevent a truck from hitting me?' Does it, Nura? If the truck does not hit because I imagined it would not, that would indeed be a great trick and life after death would also be possible.

What? This is not my point. I am not asking you if imagination makes reality. I am asking you can you imagine not existing, it is a very simple question in which you should have answered long ago, "no, of course not".<<

You have framed a question for me and also answered it for me! I have no choice in the matter. Very Islamic indeed!

The reason for this infantile assumption is because Allah makes exactly such an infantile claim. Now you tell me that He is not all good. He claims time and again that He is the most merciful, the most beneficent. If He is not good then why these claims. Can a being who is not good be all merciful and benevolent? Who is being infantile?

>>Your beliefs that a suffering world entails a bad god is YOUR perception. My argument was, that most people are atheists because they don't believe that a God will allow suffering.<<

Have you asked any atheist the reasons for his disbelief. I am willing to bet that god not allowing suffering will come somewhere at the bottom. They will bring this up only to show believers that they cannot have their cake and it too i.e. an Allah who is all-merciful but yet creates suffering.

>>It is based on an assumption that if there is a God that he is good, which does not necessarily have to be true, but is.<<

Nura, beautiful Islamic logic. I must preserve it in my mental archives. Nura, read what you have written again. If something is not necessarily true then it can also be false. Which is exactly what I am telling you. Allah claims to be merciful and benevolent but also cheerfully informs you in several verses that He mercilessly destroys whole towns, men, women, babies in arms and frail old men. In one verse He even makes people of a township commit abomination and then annihilates them, 17:16. A loving merciless Allah is a glaring contradiction.

>> Allah is the most beneficent, however, he is also many other names.<<

Whatever names He may have He must prove to be worthy of those names. Idi Amin had gathered quite a few titles to his name, did he deserve them?

>> The wisdom of his goodness is limited by our intellect and knowledge.<<

What is the point in discussing them if they are beyond out powers?

>> If you hit your child on the hand, he may not understand why because of his limit of knowledge, but you would know that it is for his own good.<<

A parent who does that is a child abuser. If you hit him and don't tell him the reason or make clear why, it means you have hit him for no reason. What is the child to make of such a beating?

>> Allah's relationship with humanity is based on trust that he is All-knowing and knows what's best for us regardless if we are able to understand or not. It is only our limit, not his limit of goodness.<<

So like the parent hitting his child Allah thinks that he can torture us without telling us the reason for it. Some prophet has told us it is for our good and all will be well in the end (ie. We are all dead in the long run, so who is to know?). What utter nonsense. Only people with religion on their brains cannot see through this kind of atrocious log

>>Further, tell me exactly why God has to be YOUR perception of good, if he is the All-powerful?<<

He need not be. But why does He keep telling me He is the most merciful but behaves in a most merciless manner often? What perception will I get of such a contradictory Allah?

You said just before this that Allah need not be good (which He most certainly is not as He claims to be the creator of evil also). Ask yourself whether a just being can create evil which by definition is unjust when inflicted on an innocent like the little girl suffering from cancer.

>>If he is not good, then you agree that he exists.<<

Please explain how you came to that conclusion. All of us are not blessed with good Islamic logic. I don't remember agreeing to any such thing.

>> Allah created everything including beings that are capable of committing Evil. If God is all powerful, then why couldn't he create evil?<<

Allah creating evil is self-evident from what goes on in the world and from what He tells us in the Koran. He created Satan, fully knowing his nature. He tells us in 113:2 to protect ourselves from the evil He has created (how this is possible beats me).

>>Your argument should be that a good God would not create evil, but that would cause you to admit that it is possible for God to exist although you may not agree with his ways. Yes, it's a catch 22 in your case. <<

Yes that is my argument. How would He be good otherwise. Why then can't you also worship Satan who creates evil?

Your conclusion seems cockeyed to say the least. YOU are concluding for me that if I admit that a good god cannot commit evil will lead me to admit to god's existence. Have I got that right? I am sorry to inform you that you are trying to put words into my mouth. What I have said all along is that there is a huge gap between Allah's claim to be all merciful and his actual actions. There are much more subtle reasons for my disbelief in a purpose-driven creator who is outside and disconnected from his creation.

>>I will propose that Allah has power over all things and does as he pleases.<<

As a true Muslim I don't see how you can propose what His powers are or what they are not.

>>He has ordained justice for himself so he is justice; he has ordained mercy for himself so he is merciful. These facts are not refuted because YOU can't understand him or his plans. Your disbelief is based on a limited amount of knowledge and perception.<<

I will willingly admit that my knowledge and capabilities of perception are limited. But you have proposed that Allah has ordained justice for Himself (however unjust my limited power of perception tells me He is in actual behaviour) and further that He has ordained mercy for Himself and so no matter how mercilessly He behaves according to my limited knowledge and perception He should be considered merciful. Now tell us Nura what is the basis for your proposal. Some verses from the Koran would have been helpful.

If I am incapable of understanding Allah and His plans why are you here arguing with me?

Regards

Plato

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