Nura: Are we getting anywhere despite time well spent? Part III

Submitted by Plato (India), Oct 31, 2008 at 22:05

Nura, you wrote:

>>"Some faces that day, will beam in happiness, looking at their Lord."
[Qiyamah, 75: 22-23]
(This ayah is used as proof by ahl us-Sunnah that the people of Paradise will actually see their Creator).<<

Among Hindus and other pagans when they see their idols their faces beam with happiness. Anything wrong with this kind of happiness?

>>Among the greatness of the hereafter is that in Paradise, Believers will not remember the evil that they suffered on earth. Which brings a philosophical question: If suffering is not remembered then is it suffering?<<

Why bring in philosophy into a theological question? Here is a theological question I hope you can answer. Would the sinners remember their sins when they are frying in Hell??

>>There is a Hadith that a man who was greatly oppressed in life, but persevered. He looked at heaven and Allah asked him if he ever knew any evil in his previous life, and the man will answer that he never knew anything evil.<<

This is a silly hadith. Either the prophet knew what was going to happen on judgment day or Allah told him about it. The hadith is talking about an event that will happen on judgment day. What was the purpose of making him suffer if he is not made to realize that it was because of his privations that he is in paradise? He could then praise Allah for having made him suffer!

>>This Hadith proves that the reward of heaven is so great that once a believer looks at it, all of the sufferings of the previous life will be forgotten.<<

He certainly will forget his sufferings what with all the wine, women and rivers of milk he will have an eternity to enjoy. He wouldn't be human otherwise. But I pity the poor sinners as most certainly Allah will not let them forget their sins.

>>Pain of suffering can only exist within the memory of the event. I could be set ablaze. I would feel the burning my flesh at the time of the event, however, what if I did not remember the fire. Would it still hurt? How can it hurt if I don't remember and my body shows no signs of burning?<<

Now you are becoming philosophical or may be physiological. Another theological question for you, Nura. Can the sinners screaming in hell remember the sins for which they are being made to suffer?

>>This is the likeness of this world. The suffering for the believer becomes non-existent when compared to the bliss of the hereafter.<<

What about the non-suffering believer? He gets to enjoy a lesser paradise? Maybe they will have to do without the wine and women and have to make do with rivers of milk and honey. LOL

>>If I remained hidden while he suffered, as Allah does, and then claims through some intermediaries of doubtful provenance, that I the one taking care of him I would understand if my son turned away from me and worshipped a picture of a statue as his saviour.

>>You act as if Allah created man and just left him without any guidance. <<

Allah did leave man, the unbelievers among them at least, without guidance. Read verses 6:125, 7:186 or 32:13

>>There has been many prophets and books that has conveyed the message of Allah, his warnings, his promises, his love for the believers. We cannot seem him in this life, but the believer is promised to see him the hereafter.<<

And what is the purpose of seeing Him in all His glory?? We need a purpose in life. Is this the purpose of the after life? I would rather not have one.

>>If My servants ask you about Me, I am near. I answer the call of the caller when he calls on Me.

They should therefore respond to Me and believe in Me so that hopefully they will be rightly guided.
(Surat al-Baqara: 186)<<

The schizophrenic Allah all over again. He is the One who chooses whom He guides. Why is Allah talking such nonsense in this verse?

>>Furthermore, if we did see him in this life, there would be no purpose of our creation which is the triumph of believing in him unseen.<<

Nura, you have now revealed the mystery of the purpose of an after life. The ‘aha' moment when believers are triumphantly confirmed in their blind belief in a jealous, angry, fearsome Creator. Great moment indeed!

>>His knowledge, his signs, his creation, his sciences, his messengers, and his books are with us. What more do we need to believe?<<

His knowledge? That the sun sets in a muddy pool or mountains are pegs to stabilize the earth? That the stars are in the lower heavens (37:6) and the moon above them (71:15)?

What are his signs? The sun and moon racing each other in a game of catch me if you can? 36:40 SHAKIR: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.

Or the bees building homes in hills and houses? In the sailing of ships and night and day 2:164?

His messengers? Among them Noah for whom Allah committed genocide on a scale yet unseen.

His creation? Would you care to include Satan in his creation. Would you care to include diseases that strike without rhyme or reason even new born babies in his creation?

Nura, haven't you heard? His books get corrupted, changed, hidden, lost and anything else that can possibly happen to ordinary books (as claimed in His final revelation).

>> You believe in love? Do you see it? Can you measure it? How then do you know it exist? Is there anyone who would dispute the existence of love? No… so then why dispute in the existence of Allah solely because you cannot see him?<<

We know love exists because we feel it not as your silly questions ask whether we can see or measure it. What is the connection in believing in love and the existence of Allah? I cannot see Him, neither can you but I (nor you) can feel his love or mercy. If he had love millions would not suffer. If He had mercy He would not merciless destroy whole towns for sins committed by a few.

>>The believers love him and feel happiness in remembering him. Believers testify his existence.<<

Love Him and be happy in His remembrance but don't come and do dawa for this angry, jealous god. Go ahead and testify to His existence but don't expect unbelievers to believe your proofs based on false premises.

>>You sound as if you believe in Allah, but are angry with him in this statement.<<

I am not an idiot to believe in a phantom who claims to be master of the universe through an illiterate mouthpiece. I am not angry at this phantom of the universe but at the persons who have convinced people like you that such a silly being exists and made their brains into putty which they mould to suit their nefarious purposes.

>> Does it make more sense that all the tragedies that you have mentioned are for no cause?<<

And what cause do they serve? Terrify people into believing in a sadistic creator?

>>They mean nothing but a cruel existence of the survival of the fittest? <<

They mean that if Allah, the Phantom of the Universe, exists He is a cruel, merciless being.

>>You would like to believe that suffering is for nothing? <<

What exactly is suffering for? To remind you of a merciless and cruel Allah?

>>This is a depressing thought. Suffering and adversity must have meaning or what would prevent man from destroying himself.<<

Your attempting to give meaning to adversity is what depresses me. Insisting that suffering has meaning does not give it any meaning. Insisting that jealousy is green coloured does not make it so.

>> Perhaps this is why the suicide rate is so high in your country. No perceived meaning to life.<<

I checked the internet and found India has a medium rate of suicide. Muslim, countries, unsurprisingly, mostly have no data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suicide_rates_map.svg

Hindus believe your soul takes birth again and again until it ‘self' in the body realizes it the immortal soul that pervades the universe and ends its cycle of birth and death. (This is my understanding. There are probably variations to this theme. But you will find the Hindu concept of our existence is far removed from the angry, jealous Phantom you believe is the puppeteer of the Universe. Take time off to study some of the principal Upanishads)

>>…….. For those who cannot not hear or see, should thank Allah for their hearts which beats for a lifetime unaided, and in which they will feel love for their families, there is not greater joy than love. Those who may have never known love should thank Allah for their existence; there existence is proof that they were a thought from the All mighty.<<

Would, Nura, you love ( and I have asked you this before) someone who despite having the power to alleviate your worldly misery refuses to do so telling you that your sufferings benefit you in the unknown future? If you did I would pity you. Thank Allah for an existence full of misery in hope for a better future? Allah is for you, not me.

>>Their soul was specially formed by the All mighty. They are promised loved by the almighty for loving him.<<

Allah's love is conditional on your love for Him. What is the worth of such love?

>>This is why the thought of Allah eases souls of distressed. There are endless things to thank Allah for if you were intelligent.<<

Thank Allah for the killings in Darfur, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, for the millions suffering with incurable diseases (which Allah can cure in the blink of an eye). Allah is going to reward them for their needless suffering. I would rather be an idiot and not understand these events and what they mean if Allah exists.

>>He never sent me any letters. An illiterate Arabian claimed Allah had messaged him through a winged being no one except he could see. You expect men to believe this man?

All your life he has called to you and you reject him. He calls to you now and you reject him.<<

Allah seems to have made me deaf, as He does with all unbelievers, as I have yet to hear His call. I would not reject Him if He cared to call me as He did the Prophet.

>>You will see mountains of "return to sender" letters on the Day of Judgment.<<

That would be because Allah did not have my address. Or deliberately put in the wrong address as He wanted to have people to fill his hell as He tells us: ‘If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

Allah has already decided I am fodder for His hell. How can I defy Allah?

>>An illiterate man Muhammad (PBUH) was, like the majority of your countrymen. This is the very reason why, he could not have created the Quran himself. It had to have been a revelation from God. How many illiterate men created a work as this Quran, the attested phenomenon?<<

You are right. Not many literate persons could have created a book like the Koran. Completely jumbled, rambling from one subject to another without any sensible order, stories cannibalized from other scriptures and cultures, nonsense science and mostly devoted to threats, curses and inducement to commit murder to gain paradise. It is quite possible to believe that the Koran is the work of an illiterate person.

And who attested to the Koran being god's word?

>>Many men do believe this. Over 1/6 of the world's population.<<

A hundred percent of the world's population believed the sun revolves around the earth not many centuries ago (like the Koran also confirmed). That did not make it true.

>>You are given a free choice and intelligence to make the best decisions. If you ignore guidance then you have rejected the message. Have you not read the Quran?<<

Yes, Nura, I have read the Koran a few times. And it very, very clearly tells me that Allah chooses to guide whom He wishes. I have no free choice. I have given the verses on Allah's guidance a few times in this post. Let me repeat, in case you have forgotten: 7:30, 32:13, 13:31, 10:19. Open your Koran and read them again for some misguidance, Allah style.

>>Did Allah not call disbelievers to belief? He has called you then and you know it.<<

Read 7:30, 32:13, 13:31, 10:19 once more for an answer. If He has called me it is to misguide me. Keep reading those verses and perhaps all will be revealed to you.

>> Why do you believe that you are worthy of Allah speaking to you directly?<<

Why not?? Allah considered an illiterate orphan worthy. I am literate, educated, have traveled the world. If not me, then why not worthier people than me? The real Plato, Socrates, Einstein, Mother Teresa, Gandhi all far worthier than an illiterate Arab or me.

>>The most pious Muslims did not have this honor in fact the only one whom Allah talked direct was Moses (PBUH).<<

If Allah is so high and mighty and will not speak to us on earth why does He choose to confront us in all His raging glory on judgment day?

>>Furthermore, if that it what requires your belief, then your faith is worthless. Many believe without this.<<

I would rather be faithless than have faith in a phantom who claims to love me and yet will not honour me with direct contact.

To the many who believe like you, to paraphrase what the Koran says in Surat 109 : You shall have your belief and but leave me alone with my unbelief. Thank you.

>> When he does speak to you in the hereafter, you will wish that you had believed in him before.<<

That will be the day. I eagerly await it.

>>Why should I be grateful for a heart that I know can give way any moment, without as much as a by your leave.

What a statement!! Why should your wife love you when you can walk out of the door at any minute!<<

Yeah. Why should she??

>>Do you need for reasons for thanks! Your body is a living miracle and testament to God!

* 900 breaths in an hour........

*The total length of your circulatory system stretches an amazing 60,000 miles<<

All those statistics you have given tell me this Allah is a poor designer. Even I a non-biologist could have told Allah that he could have designed us much more efficiently. For instance instead of going to great lengths to design the lungs to waste energy breathing 900 times an hour, He could have designed us to absorb oxygen directly through our porous skins as some organisms do (Allah designed salamanders to breath through their skin). Allah needs 60,000 miles of plumbing to get blood to every cell in the body. What a waste!

His design fails frequently when even young people fall dead of heart attacks, stroke, kidney failure etc. etc. etc…. Is there a lesson to be drawn from the poorly designed bodies Allah has given us?

>>If you disbelieve, then verily, Allah is not in need of you;(1) He likes not disbelief for His slaves.(2) And if you are grateful (by being believers), He is pleased therewith for you.(3……..He is All-Knower of that which is in (men's) breasts. (Az-Zumar, 7)

Allah does not need us, we need him!!<<

So says Allah. Why then did He create me knowing full well that I will not believe in Him? Nura, Allah needs me. Without people like me He would have no use for the hell He claims to have waiting for us. He has to fulfill His boast about filling hell with jinn and men, remember?

>>If you don't need him, then try to end your existence then. Can you choose not to exist? To not exist does not mean death because we all know that our bodies do not stop existing after death. It continues to transform into other forms of existence.<<

Weird. You mean to say that when the atoms in my body become a part of other bodies, say of a cockroach, I have become a cockroach? That is a nice thought as the atoms from Einstein could be in me. Hey presto I am Einstein!

>>Matter cannot be created or destroyed, who said that?<<

That was before Einstein. Matter can be transformed into energy and vice versa, Einstein the infidel scientist showed.

>>So then, what does Allah need from us?<<

Our worship, our adoration and most of all our fear. Allah does not just need He demands these things of us.

>>What are we offering that is so wonderful that he could not get it himself?<<

I have said it before. We are asked to offer Him worship, adoration and our fear. Allah gets furious if He is not offered these.

>>Allah desires nothing for himself because he has all.<<

He can't worhip Himself or fear Himself can He? He desires these very acutely and so created us to offer them to Him. Absolutely a weird person, your Allah.

>>He desire good for us.<<

What is this good? Heaven for worshipping, adoring and fearing Him?

>> Man offers nothing but persistent rebellion, annoyance.<<

You are talking of unbelievers like me, I presume. It makes me laugh. A minute speck of dust on another speck of dust can rebel against the creator of the Universe.

Spending a life time worshipping Him, adoring Him and fearing Him is good for us??

I have yet to see my shadow prostrating unless I myself do so. Not even Allah can make it prostrate if I do not. And if it did it would be some kind of pyrrhic victory for Allah because it would mean He is incapable of making me do the prostration and has to make do with my shadow (recall Satan did not prostrate before Adam despite Allah's orders?)

>>Does your shadow not move with the light of the sun? It prostrates at various times of the day as the earth moves your shadow is never in the same place is it. Your heat prostrates when it beats. Your lungs when it breaths. Would you stop this?<<

Islamic gobbledygook or is it balderdash?

>>The promise of the hereafter and the Day of Judgment is proof that he is just. <<

Muslims believe a promise given by an illiterate man who claimed to have got it via an angel called Gabriel who in turn heard the promise from Allah. If Muslims believe that it is no wonder they are in the mess they are in.

>>This is when the poor little girl with have her compensation for suffering. If it were not for this day, Allah would not be just.<<

Pie in Allah's sky for useless suffering on earth.

>>I believe in the only Al mighty LOL! If he is Al mighty than he should be glorified.<<

You are equating Allah to tin-pot dictators as I told you in my post. The ruler of the universe has an inflated ego to demand glorification.

>> Does he need man to glorify him, no.<<

Why then does Allah demand glorification in the form of worship?

>>His existence as the first and the last glorifies him.<<

Gobbledygook again.

>> Humans glorify Allah because it brings THEM closer. It helps them to understand and overcome the hardships of this life. It allows believers to feel that Allah is with them although they cannot see them.<<

Would glorifying Allah have helped the suffering girl to overcome the painful disease He had given her? And why would punishing her for no reason whatever make her feel Allah is with her?

>> When believers see the evidence of Allah's existence they bow down in adoration happily, not debased.<<

Believers believe the evidence of an illiterate Arab who tells them that a phantom in the sky called Allah has told him He exists. Intelligent people would not debase themselves thus.

>>The glorification of Allah is for the benefit of his glorifiers.<<

You say that because you believe Allah when He holds out inducements (bribes) to glorify Him.

>>The ones debased will be those who will wish to prostrate but cannot in the hereafter.<<

Allah comforts the believers by assuring that disbelievers will be debased in the hereafter.

>>Egotism- this is a philosophical theory of human consciousness. It has not been proven to exist at all let alone be an attribute to God.<<

Egotism: An exaggerated opinion of your own importance (Wordweb). Not much philosophy in it. Allah covers Himself with more beautiful names than any tin-pot dictator in His Koran. If egotism does not exist in Allah why does He claim so many beautiful attributes for Himself. He does not show any pity to a girl dying of a painful disease yet call Himself ar rahman.

>>Plato, we are all in this together. Those who believe in Allah and the promise of the hereafter are suffering as much if not more than any one else.<<

Why then do you believe this illiterate out of the Arabian desert?

>> Does your disbelief in Allah makes this suffering easier or harder?<<

It makes it much easier. I do not have to debase myself by glorifying and prostrating myself before my tormentor, Allah. You feel compelled to debase yourself in front of this awful being.

>>The believer believes that his suffering is for the greatness that comes from it. They are happy to suffer from him because they believe in the hope of the hereafter.<<

A sure sign of weak minds. Weak minds make believe that suffering gives them greatness and they will have great rewards for it in an imaginary hereafter.

>>A person who believes in nothing, there suffering has no meaning but despair.<<

You are saying because I believe suffering has no meaning and causes despair should give me ground for believing in an unseen angry, jealous god ever ready to cause me more suffering and despair in the after life? Great reasoning, Nura.

>>He warned you in the Quran, you know this. In your arrogance you presume to know what is just and unjust.<<

Arrogance is not required to know what is just and unjust. A reading of the Koran gives you a lesson in what is unjust. Read about Allah's guidance in these verses: 7:30, 10:99, 6:125. You also know what He does to you for merely disbelieving in Him. Think for yourself, Nura. Don't let the mullahs do it for you.

>>If you believe in justice then why do you fight for it?<<

I fight for justice (in my own almost insignificant way) because justice is worth fighting for, not because an Allah, who is manifestly unjust (7:30, 10:99 etc) demands it.

>>Are you active in stopping the injustice in your country? Would you die to stop injustice in your country? If you were willing, you would be dead already. This is why injustice prevails; it prevails because people are not fighting for it.<<

I can ask you the same questions. Are Muslims, despite having the Koran as a guide active in stopping injustice? Are Muslims prepared to die for justice. Those Muslims who fought for justice are dead already. Injustice prevails in Muslim countries more than in other nations because Muslims despite the guidance (or is it as I suspect because of Allah's misguidance?) they have received from Allah are loathe to fight for justice.

The pagans, polytheists and atheists of Nepal without the ‘true' guidance of Allah fought and died and overthrew an unjust regime. When will Muslims do the same with the injustice they suffer at the hands of their rulers?

You want Allah to do everything for you?

>>Allah says that he is the Most Merciful and the Most strict in punishment. No one will punish as he punish.<<

He can say anything He wants including that He is the Most Merciful but then He proves with His own words that He is not. The floods that destroyed almost the whole of mankind, the cities He proudly claims to have destroyed, the punishment He has waiting for disbelief all give the lie to Allah's claim to be the most merciful.

>> He only asks man to do good deeds and worship none along with him to avert this punishment and receive Mercy. It is not for you to decide what is just.<<

Among the good deeds He asks of believers is to kill and be killed for His sake (9:111), make war on unbelievers till they submit and pay a humiliation tax, Taking booty and making hapless slave girls into concubines should also count as good deeds as the Koran allows it.

>>The Meccans who left Mecca to destroy Medina.<<

Oh dear me, where did you hear this twist to the tale of Muhammad's depradations? Or are you being disingenuous? Let me disabuse of the spin that your madrassa gave to this incident. (I suggest you get this book from Amazon.com ‘The Life of Muhammad' a translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasulallha, by Alfred Guillaume). This is about the earliest account of the prophet written by a Muslim that is available. In its contents there is mention of: The first raid: on Waddan, page 281, Hamza's raid to the coast, page 283, Raid on Buwat, page 285, Raid on al-Ushayra, page 285, raid on al-Kharrar, page 286, Raid on Safawan, page 286, and then the Battle of badr, page 289.

So here is your mercy to all mankind conducting raids on passing caravans to steal from them. The battle of Badr was the result of another such attempted act of banditry. Here is what Ibn Ishaq has to say on this incident: Page 289 ‘Then the apostle heard that Abu Sufyan b. Harb was coming from Syria with a large caravan of Quraysh, containing their money and merchandise, accompanied by some thirty or forty men….'

…he (Muhammad) summoned the Muslims and said, ‘This is the Quraiysh caravan containing their property. Go out and attack it, perhaps God will give it as a prey.' The people answered… some eagerly….others reluctantly because they had not thought that the apostle would go to war…..

Now Nura, are you, like other Muslims after reading this going to tell me that Muhammad had a right to make war on the Quraysh because Muslims claim, dishonestly that the Quraish had confiscated Muslim property and driven them out of their homes.

>>Do you think an army of 300 would pick a fight against an army of 1,000 unless they were in danger? The order was given for the survival of Muslims.<<

Ibn Ishaq gives the lie to this claim of yours because he says there were only thrity or forty men in Abu Sufyan's caravan. The prophet set out with 300 men, to loot it because the prophet himself says the caravan had the property of the Quraysh and it was lightly guarded. (Ibn Kathir, another Muslim historian has the same story in his ‘The life of the Prophet Muhammad.'

Reading Ibn Kathir is also instructive about the cultural levels of the Muslims and the pagans so abused by Allah and his prophet. Ibn kathir Vol II of the ‘The Life of Prophet Muhammad', Garnet Publishing, page 265: ‘Thinking he had saved his caravan, Abu Sufyan sent word to Quraysh, ‘You came out to do battle in order to protect your caravan, people and wealth; God has now saved these, go back!'

The much-maligned Abu Sufyan is not interested in punishing the Muslims who intended to loot his wealth.

On page 288 you read about Abu Jahl who had egged on the Quraysh to give battle to the Muslims:' I swear by al-Lat and al-Uzza, we'll not go back home before we have scattered them into the mountains. I don't expect any of you to kill any of them. Just capture them roughly and make them aware of their bad behaviour in parting company with you and abandoning al-Lat and al-Uzza.'

The Quraysh leaders come alive in these two incidents as men willing to defend what is theirs and inflict punishment to the Muslims intent on looting them. But they also show that compared to the Muslims they were men of compassion.

This is what the Muslims' god tells His prophet about the Badr incident:

8:67 PICKTHAL: It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Your Allah is telling Muslims that the only good enemy is a dead one. And Muhammad acted upon it several times. Remember the Banu Quraiza?

Ibn Kathir (also Ibn ishaq) also tells us about the vindictive nature of Muhammad, the supposed glorious example for all mankind. Page 293-294: ‘When the Messenger of God had finished with his enemy, he ordered that the body of Abu Jahl be sought among those killed…..

….I then severed his head and took it to the Messenger of God and told him, ‘This, O Messenger of God, is the head of God's enemy.' Is it really, by God other than whom there is none? I responded, ‘Yes, by God….' I then threw Abu Jahl's head down in front of him and he praised God.

>>Did you expect the

Who would want to fight for Allah who claims to be all-powerful and on the side of<<

At this point the site administrator seems to have cut you off.

Regards

Plato.

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