Alas! Plato believes in an unseen god, Evolution!

Submitted by nura (United States), Oct 28, 2008 at 02:49

Mere existence is a gift? Bacteria also exist without knowing they exist. Consciousness that one exists (and following from it self-consciousness) is a gift – an accidental fallout from the workings of the laws of evolution.

Existence is miraculous, do you deny that? The existence of bacteria is also miraculous despite not having a "perceived" conscious. You use the term conscious too freely. There is no definitive definition for it and in the realm of science it is often rejected, because it cannot be observed. Your argument is based on the assumption that humans are the only beings who experience consciousness.

Let's go with your understanding of the word consciousness, to be conscious is greater than existence in only one circumstance, if you are a believer. I view consciousness and belief, not merely being "awake", eating, and drinking. Animals do the same, why then are they not considered for consciousness? This is not consciousness but merely existence. It is only through the religion of God does mankind receive different levels of consciousness. The most conscious person would live his life as though each minute would be his last; this level of consciousness is rare. This mirage of this world is nothing more than an illusion within a thought. We are all a thought. The reality, where humans experience the "supreme consciousness" happens at death. This is when humans will realize the errors of their lives.

Many atheists do but no atheists will admit that existence is a gift to the suffering little girl whose example I gave you.

If I were that little girl I would gladly choose not to exist.

How? You have a very closed understanding of existence. After your dead will not your bones still exist? Rodents, insect life, bacteria, and fungus, will be feasting on your existing flesh and organs. You cannot make you self- non-existent even through death.

Epicurus said. "The sum total of things was always such as it is now, and such it will ever remain," and that nothing is created from nothing, and nothing that disappears ceases to exist.

If we cannot make ourselves non-existent, than what can? How is it possible that something created everything from nothing? It would be assumed that the force creating a source of matter could surely uncreated it. It's a preposterous idea right, un-creating matter?

Atheists following the Darwin theory will say the harshest words. According to Darwin, survival of the fittest is not only the "rule" of nature but it should be supported by higher intelligent beings. I am not surprised that you used Darwin.

Of course I can, I did not exist before I was conceived in my mother's womb.

My question was can you imagine not existing. How is the above an answer to that question? You can't remember when you didn't exist! You can't even remember when you were a year old. When did your existence become "Conscious"? Despite the fact that you cannot remember yourself in the womb, as an infant, you still cannot imagine yourself away.

I did once. But having read a little of evolution I now understand why. Evolution has ingrained in us the fear of death without which you and I will not be here discussing it. Evolution has also ingrained in all living beings a sense of purpose, for again without this we would not exist. A tiger forages far and wide with a purpose. To find food. It wouldn't move an inch otherwise and would perish and leave no progeny.

Evolution! It sounds like a "conscious" entity! How can "nothing" ingrain anything? Evolution is nothing, it is an invisible force! Soubanna –Allah, you believe in the unseen! According to Darwin, everything was "designed" by evolution and natural selection. The sole purpose of this design is for survival. Tell me, why does the evolutionary force or natural selection care if we survive? Why does it have this task to make sure that life is on earth? In caring out this task, "It" designed the most intricate, sophisticated, ingenious, PERFECT, systems of life down to the cell in which "IT" has not been repeated anywhere else in the universe. What sense does this make? How a can force that has no form, no place, no consciousness, create the majesty of life as we know it?

Furthermore, to create anything, you need ingredients. Nothing is created from nothing. Even if that ingredient is just hydrogen gas, it an ingredient that aids in life. Let's say evolution created everything, what created IT and the ingredients that it used to make life on earth.

"All those whom you call out to besides Him, they cannot even create a fly."(Quran)

This is a wonderful yet simple statement that applies in the 21 first century! You need ingredients to make life. Only Allah knows what they are. Allah is the only one who can create them. Allah created evolution, one of his names Al- Bari, it is translated as "The evolver". It only makes sense that the design of evolution had to be created by a superior intelligence, or there would be many flaws in the system.

Humans also need to perceive a purpose for everything. Unlike the tiger they can wonder about the purpose of life itself. When they see death staring at them at every turn they see life as a purposeless existence.

Perhaps you see life as a purposeless existence. How could you not when you believe that you and everything in the earth his one big mistake. But your forget, according to Darwin death does have a purpose, making room for new life, which brings me to your example of the poor sick girl. We looked at two perspectives, Hindu, and Islamic. The Hindu explanation that you seem to favor would imply that the girl deserved her fate because it is due to her karma. Bad Karma implies that she was evil in her past life and her suffering from cancer is its expiation .First, Islam states that hardship strikes both the good and bad so it is not assumed that it was a punishment. Secondly, hardship is natural and necessary for humanity to realize its blessings and serves to increase the ranking of the righteous in the hereafter. Allah will reward with bliss unimaginable, forever, for those who believe and is patient through hardship and as I stated before, the pain that was suffered will be forgotten. Darwin's theory is actually the harshest. He would view that the death of the girl was not only necessary to keep the natural order, but that helping to save her life would be unethical. His view of disease is that it must exist to control world population. You have heard of population control management, I'm sure. The argument, rooted in Darwinism, states that humans are living longer and are being saved form diseases and injuries that would have killed past generations. It is for this reason that the world is in trouble. There are too many people and not enough resources. There are active programs seeking to control world population for this reason.

In addition, the helping of this girl would be unethical because, the law of life is survival of the fittest. Helping the weak pollutes society with weaker genes and ultimately can destroy society itself. This is the ideology you converted to?

That going out of existence is a great fear and we love to live are true but Darwin has shown us the reasons for the fear of death and the love of life. Simply put, as I pointed out before, without them we would not be here debating these points.

Why then do people die for ideological causes, whether it is for religion or country? In fact, most people die for nationalistic allegiances. How does this fit in with his theory? Why do people commit suicide? Is there a glitch in the system or is the perception of life and death more complicated?

That is what people like Prophet Muhammad took advantage of. He and people of his ilk spun a story of a life after death. The life after death being a reward or punishment for what one believed and how one lived on earth. With the fear of death and the necessity for purpose built into us by evolution this kind of story is swallowed hook line and sinker by those with weak minds.

I have already established that there is life after death. Even if you perceive it as biological life, you cannot deny that there is life after death. The question now, is there consciousness after death? Back to the nature of the soul philosophical argument, in which I'm not going to get into, but you cannot prove that consciousness stops after death. A hereafter has to exist for supreme justice to prevail.

Question: Would you consider religion a creation of evolution? Humans always had some form of religion; atheism is actually new on the "evolutionary" scale. If so, then what would be the purpose? The purpose would have to be in terms of survival because evolution is concerned only with the survival of species. What would be the outcome if humans got ride of an evolutionary creation.

Your proposal does not hold water for the simple reason that because you or I cannot imagine ourselves ceasing to exist forever does not destine us to be immortal. You have not demonstrated a logical connection.

It is not a logical statement, it is a preposition. I am proposing that being unable to imagine not existing is an indicator that it will not happen. We all can imagine death! We all know death will happen which totally plummets your argument of the Darwin's answer. According to your answer, we should not be able to imagine death either.

What kind of a conclusion have you given? I cannot imagine myself being run over if I jump into the oncoming traffic. Does that prevent a truck from hitting me?

I think if you think really, really, really, hard you could imagine the impact the truck will have on your body. You can imagine the screech of the brakes as the truck tries to avoid you. You can imagine your screams or gasps. Can you do the same with non-existence? What does it feel like? Yes, it's a trick question.

Yes, that indeed is the question. Try answering it yourself without having to fall back on the Koran and hadith. Allah has given you a brain with which to think for yourself.

This is the most infantile atheist argument there is. The first assumption that if God exists that he has to be good! Why exactly is this assumption? Secondly, as Muslims, we believe that Allah ordained justice for himself. Meaning that if he did not choose this ordainment for himself, what would prevent him from being unjust? We are talking about an all powerful being. Al-humdulilah, Allah is just and good, apparently this is the superior of all dispositions. This is why it is best for us to be just and good, it is superior. Third, the argument is based on the assumption that all suffering is bad, all death is bad, all tragedies are bad. This is really a matter of wisdom. Humans must die! There is no way out of it. Even if the first generations lived the food would eventually run out and humanity would die anyway! In addition, it is known that with illness brings cures. Human body being exposed to disease and illness actually allows humanity to evolve into a stronger species. In addition, Allah has given cures with these diseases. He says that with every disease there is a cure. Scientists believe they will find a cure for cancer one day; why; because the formula has to be on the earth like every other cure. Unfortunately, the poor does not get access to enough help, and that is the fault of man. At least there are ways that pain can be eased, all from the mercy of Allah.

It is far better than postulating an all-powerful, most merciful and benevolent Allah who chooses to let the girl suffer to distinguish believers from unbelievers. Allah is making a mockery of what benevolence and mercy mean.

I have already proven that the Hindu and Darwinist explanation is far more cruel. Suffering never lasts! Suffering can't last in its very nature. The human body can only take so much. Allah says that he never places a burden of humanity that he cannot bare. The human body and mind is strong and can overcome amazing odds. This is all the proofs of Allah. No injure automatically insures death. There are people who are shot in the head and do not die. Doctors are amazed and how many people who were told they would die in a matter of months, and they don't die. These are all proofs in which Allah shows his existence to his creatures.

Did Allah solve the little girl's problem?

Don't start out- of -context arguments:

10:12

"when affliction befalls man, he cries out unto Us, whether he be lying on his side or sitting or standing; but as soon as We have freed him of his affliction, he goes on as though he had never invoked Us to save him from the affliction that befell him! Thus do their own doings seem goodly unto those who waste their own selves."

This ayat and the ones before were speaking directly of those who are arrogant. How many people when their life is at threat say "God help me and I will do……." We all know this saying, but when they survive, they forget. That is what this ayat speaks of. Allah will answer the call of the little girl, her suffering will end.

10 And thus it is: if We let him taste ease and plenty after hardship has visited him, he is sure to say, "Gone is all affliction from me!"-for, behold, he is given to vain exultation, and glories only in himself.

Again, this ayat is speaking of the example above, it does not apply to everyone who is suffering.

Millions of children like the girl would have cried for mercy from Allah, did He listen and give them a taste of His mercy?

Millions of people cry out for mercy. First, the crier will get's his reward and mercy from the god he cries on. Despite many people crying for help to different non-existent gods, Allah still sends mercy in many forms. There are medicines that alleviate pain, love of family, and if none of this is available, there is the mercy of death. Imagine if you had to suffer forever, no death. That is the supreme Evil, right? That is the hereafter for the disbeliever.

Did the little girl bring on the evil of her own cancer?

Childish, Anyway…

30:35 Have We ever bestowed upon them from on high a divine writ which would speak [with appro­val] of their worshipping aught beside Us?

30:36 And [thus it is:] when we let men taste [Our] grace, they rejoice in it; but if evil befalls them as an outcome of what their own hands have wrought lo! they lose all hope!

Again, Allah is speaking about a specific people and situation. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE!

Tell that to the suffering people of this world, like the little girl, whose only hope of help is death.

You would be surprised and how faithful children can be in adversity. Ask the Palestinian children and they well tell you why they love Allah! If only, people like you could have their faith. They don't question God's existence because of their plight, so why should you sitting comfortably.

Allah's help is always near, that is what they will tell you.

This is just a cry from Allah about His own powerlessness. Be patient until death takes you, little girl with incurable cancer, and all will be taken care of. LOL.

All cancer is not incurable. There are treatments that have developed from the mercy of Allah. Death is only the beginning of life. The message of the Quran is to not forget the true purpose of your existence which is the hereafter. If this life was perfect, a utopia, what would be the need for heaven. If there is no need for heaven, than what is the purpose for doing good, especially when good is a matter of perception. Death is the reliever of world tribulations so that we do not cling to worldly, materialistic, life. My hell would be the idea that this world is it. There is nothing more to look forward to. If I believed this, I probably would have committed suicide a long time ago and so would the majority of humanity.

Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger,

What, you want heaven for free! Heaven is expensive

Tribulations are tests. Tests that distinguish the good from the bad. They are necessary. It is thru adversity that humanity has made the best contributions to society. It is thru tribulations that the good shine in superiority of all other creation.

Who else but those with weak minds will make such an idiotic statement. This is an invitation by Allah not to fight adversity and accept one's fate.

It is the best statement for the wise. Further proof that tribulations are designed to remind us of our goals. An idiotic statement is that Allah does not want us to fight adversity. What is Jihad then? Only Allah knows our fate. We never know what is intended for us even if it looks bad. We should always have the hope that we will overcome and work for that. If fate is fate, then you would have no other choice but to accept it too. We say we believe in Allah either way, good or bad outcome. We are only retuning to our creator.

What good did Allah give the little girl in this world?

What! There are many people who have suffered in this life that can remember good in their life. Come one. There were good times.

What about those whose distress He does not remove, like the little girl. Should she show gratitude to Allah for making her suffer? And a nice little threat in typical Allah-style at the end.

More childish questions. He WILL remove the girl's distress. She cannot suffer forever.

The threat is very important. Allah knows that disbelievers care nothing about them. Believers feel safe from them, so why are they there? They are there because they are warnings. The Quran is glad tidings for the believer and a warning for the disbeliever. What good are warnings of trials in the hereafter when most people do not believe in it? It is because, disbelievers will not be able to say on the day of judgment that they were not warned. The angels will ask "Where you not warned of this coming day?" They will "Yes, but we did not take heed". Allah cannot punish people unless they were warned first. This is why messengers were sent. The Quran is the last warning and it does not rely on proofs of this life. The proof that Allah speaks of is in the hereafter. This is why it must be accomplished. The hereafter is what the Quran is all about. If it did not exist, what would be the use of warning a people who would never believe?

No respite even for you Nura, despite your belief in Allah.

I'm still living, that is my respite. As long as I'm alive, I can earn more and do better.

Allah is telling you He will torture people in this life and if they turn away He has His yet more torture waiting for them.

Allah is telling me that the righteous persevere. I have not had the easiest life, but I can say that Allah has always helped me. I have never made a prayer that he did not answer! This is why thru adversity believers remain believers. There prayers are answered in some way.

I will tell you a true story, may Allah strike me dead if I'm lying. I was very young, maybe 5 or 6, however I was always very God conscious. It had been instilled in me early although my family was not Muslim yet. I had a tooth that was a little loose and it hurt very badly. It was not ready come out yet and my father told me to go pray to Allah for help. He told me to prostrate on the floor, head to the floor, although, we were not Muslim yet. I went upstairs and I remember thinking that it was not going to work, but I trusted my parents. I bowed down and prostrated and prayed for awhile, and I swear, my tooth fell on the tile while my face was still on the floor. I didn't feel anything but I heard it land. I was shocked and I took my tooth to my mother and father. My mother started crying. I didn't understand why it was a surprise to them because they told me to do it.

To this day my mother brings that up. Of course people as yourself will say it was a coincidence as you believe your creation is a coincidence, however, for believers it is a truth, a guidance that increases love and devotion to the Creator.

It's sad that you cannot understand this.

Allah wants to fill your hearts with fear and bear patiently….

Allah says that the best fear is the fear of displeasing him, not the fear of harm. The fear of harm is for those who don't care if Allah is happy with them. Allah says "fear me as I should be feared….. That is fear displeasing him, not for bodily harm, that is the lowest of faith. When you really love someone, you fear them being upset with you. You hate when they are angry with you. You try to keep them happy not because you fear that they will beat you, but because you hate when they are displeased with you. This is the highest fear and love…for those who don't care; they should fear the punishment of the fire.

Guard against the evil that Allah throws at you and persevere in your belief that He is merciful and benevolent and reap the rewards after you are dead!

Again, tests prove strength. Is the person who falls into temptation like the person who abstains? There are not the same which means all men could abstain if they chose. Evil temptations are from Shaytan, and ourselves. It's just that, a temptation. There are no invisible forces making us to do anything. Everything we do is a choice, so don't blame your bad choices on Allah, blame them on yourself.

Well, I will be damned….

Be careful, you could be.

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