Re:Plato

Submitted by nura (United States), Nov 15, 2008 at 20:45

It is purposeless, except for the purpose you imagine it has like struggling to achieve the wine and women (oops I should have said boys like pearls) in Allah's paradise but happily for people like me we give it our own purpose and meaning with not a thought to things as worldly as wine and women for eternal enjoyment.

If the hereafter is an imagination, than it has been since the beginning of human religion! The belief in a hereafter is not easy invention or imagination of the human mind. If it were based on this then humans would have not believed in it a long time ago.

The hereafter is more than the "pleasures" you mock. Allah makes it very clear what the true reward is for the believer: seeing his face. This is the ultimate goal of the believer, not pure wine, or green silk. I certainty don't mind either, but this is not my primary focus. My primary focus is pleasing Allah and being in his presence. Everything else is secondary.

I said that? When? Where in my posts? Evolution does not make "mistakes". It just does its "job" without thinking of consequences. Millions of species have disappeared for ever, did evolution "care" that they were "mistakes"?

You said with when you agreed that evolution does not have a consciousness. You can't have it both ways. Either the force of evolution made conscious, purposeful, and intelligent decisions that made life possible, or it was just a coincidence. A coincidence, meaning mistake.

Does evolution think at all? You must realize the dilemma by now. If you charge that evolution, alone, is the cause for existence of everything thing that we see, then it must have an intelligence. No force that than create the mechanisms of our bodies down to the enzyme, can do so without a perfect knowledge. If this force is intelligent, than it must also have consciousness.

Do a check. Darwin never attributed any purpose to evolution and evolution does not care whether an organism lives or dies. If death makes room for new life so be it, if it does not, no matter either.

I don't need to check, this is fundamental Darwinism! The survival of the species….this is what it is all about. Survival of the strongest in order to propagate the species. The weak has to die in order for the strong to live. Maybe you should brush up on your Darwinism.

You are contradicting yourself. If evolution does not care about the survival of anything, then why did it design a way for adaptation? The only ways species, including humans, have been able to survive all this time is through adaptation on a biological level. This is the source for survival instincts in which most animal life depend on for survival. Organisms such as bacteria and virus are constantly mutating for survival. On the contrary, the entire purpose of evolution is not to just establish life, but to maintain it. It would care.

If Allah exists why does He strike down one innocent girl with cancer and another girl is showered with gifts by Him. He cannot put it down to their past lives. It is just one of Allah's whims as he keeps saying in the Koran He will do what He pleases.

This is the silly statement. I guess the girl who was born as a princess is more deserving of cancer? Who cares in what situation these girls were born in, it is not for you or me to decide what is fair in regards to them. I would argue that the princess should not have to suffer because of her statues of a princess. Perhaps the princess would be able to afford treatment had he been diagnosed with cancer. Who knows! My point is that Allah makes it very clear to us that hardships affect both the good and the bad. Is this not the case? Do you expect the good to never suffer at all? This is not heaven.

Allah does what he pleases out of his infinite knowledge.

(what is this ranking? they can sit closer to the formless Allah to see Him better?)

First, as I mentioned you have the love and good pleasure of Allah. He is pleased with his servants who are patient with him. Seeing him, being in his presence for an eternity is infinitely more rewarding than any hardship suffering that one can endure in multiple lifetimes; we only have one on earth. Allah promises us that everything that we do and believe is worth something.

You can think of a time when cancers will be cured, everyone will have enough to eat and so on. Will the righteous have a tough time achieving a high rank in heaven in the future?

There is a prophecy that when the messiah (Jesus, PBUH) returns and establishes justice on the earth, there will be a time of utopia. There will be plenty to eat, a very happy existence for everyone, although it will not last forever. The only happiness that will last forever is in Paradise. There will be no sickness, hunger, thirst, sadness, poverty and injustice. Heaven is the best that you can imagine multiplied by infinity.

They probably will have to inflict suffering on themselves by flaying their bodies, sleeping in the cold, rolling down a hill and so on to attract Allah's attention from the believers who are cowards and do not self-flagellate to achieve a high ranking in paradise (Allah does love suffering humans, does He not? He has even designated a whole month of suffering for His sake).

You are speaking of the shia sect. They do not flog themselves for Allah's pleasure for the record. They flog themselves displaying the painful death of Ali (PBUH). Al-humduiliah, Allah asks very little from us. To believe in him alone, take care of our family, act justly with people, treat our parents good, pray, fast, give charity, go to Hajj, and take care of our bodies. There are no wound inflicting rituals that Allah commands from us. The most difficult is fasting, but we are allowed to eat before dawn and after sunset. There are no human sacrifices. On the contrary, Allah has commanded that we be moderate in our worship to him. He asks very little from humanity and his servants and what he asks, is only for our own benefit. He asks for humans to not take partners with him, this is not too much.

If suffering has to be forgotten what was the purpose of inflicting it? As to the bliss, Allah has left nothing to the imagination in his description of paradise. Remember the number of verses devoted to paradise you were kind enough to enumerate in your last post?

I have already stated the wisdom behind suffering. In hardship being forgotten, I am not saying that the events will be forgotten, just that when the person sees his reward in paradise, he will say that he never suffered anything. He will feel more happiness in that he triumphed in light of hardships, so he must remember the events. Remembering will be a source of more happiness rather than pain.

Paradise is described according to the stretch of the human mind. How else can it be described? We as told that its description in the Quran is not measure for its reality which is beyond human imagination.

Nura, I wish you would get a clue to what Darwin actually said rather than post drivel, as dhimmi no more would have succinctly put it. The theory of the life and death of stars tells us that eventually the earth will be engulfed by the sun. That is a really ‘harsh' theory. Will having a less harsh theory make the sun behave differently?

Plato, I have read the ideas of Darwinism including latter theories called social Darwinism.

Because a theory is harsh does that invalidate it?

LOL, why don't you use that same reasoning when thinking about the existence of a "harsh" God or the harshness of Hell. You believe that God does not exist SOLEY because of the harshness in this world, yet you embrace a theory that is harsher, in that suffering has no purpose, on the grounds that harness does not prove fallacy? You have proven my argument! I agree, just because there is suffering in the world, does not mean that there is no God.

I wouldn't quote Dhimmie….

The theory of the life and death of stars tells us that eventually the earth will be engulfed by the sun. That is a really ‘harsh' theory. Will having a less harsh theory make the sun behave differently?

I guess the theory of the sun proves that there will be a last day, as Allah has put it. So far, we have proven that there is a life after death, and a last day for earth both of which has been determined MILENNIUMS before science discovered either of these facts.

For the record, it was not I who brought up suffering and hardship as a way of disproving a theory. That was your undertaking with your sad story of the little girl to disprove the existence of Allah. I only offered a harsher theory that you happen to believe in.

If Darwin had been alive he would have sued you for defamation. Darwin made some deductions from the evidence he had. Population control and human progress being blamed for saving humanity from disease and injuries have nothing whatsoever to do with Darwin.

Upset because I have attacked your prophet? Darwin is most likely burning in his grave, so I can care less would he would do. If you use deductive logic, you would see that what I am saying is related. Darwin ideology gave rise to further ideologies which does not conflict with his. Population control is a great advancement to the Darwinist ideology. You know that ideologies never stop expanding even with the death of the inventor and his students developed theories and ideologies based on his. They are closely related.

That is a law you have invented and attributed to Darwin. Evolution does not bother about ethics or morality. They are our inventions to overcome the extremes of some traits ingrained in us by evolution that could be detrimental to our survival.

"Not only is the law thus clearly exemplified in the evolution of the social organism, but it is exemplified with equal clearness in the evolution of all products of human thought and action; whether concrete or abstract, real or ideal…"

Spencer,1857

Ethics and morality are aspects of evolution on the contrary. You should brush up.

Spencer was very much entrenched into the theories of Darwin and Darwin actual drew from him and a few other philosophers when devising his theories. It is clear from his perspective, based on evolution, that the human species evolves in all matters of life biologically, psychologically, and socially. It is for this reason, that Darwin's ideas of the strong surviving as a way of natural selection, was attributed to social ideas such as stratification. It was the support of Social Darwinism that propelled the industrial boom in the 1900s. Of course the supporters were the powerful and the wealthy. I have invented nothing. You should look more into your religion.

The revulsion against incest is to ensure diversity in our gene pool and help eliminate bad genes.

Tell me then, why did human revile incest before their invention of morality? Why would humans invent this morality when they did not know the science behind it?

Allah's legislation does not have anything to do with it. Helping the weak does not pollute society, helping only the weak to survive will pollute society and that society will implode and disappear.

Let's look at nature as Darwin did to make his theory. Why do you think a lioness may starve her cub if her innate senses tell her that it is weak or diseased? We see this example in nature all the time where animals abandon or kill their weak. If this is where Darwin made his judgments, then why is it inconceivable to believe that the weak in society is a pollutant as in nature? They take up space, food, and resources. The poor is often the cause for disease and crime. Do you deny that the world would be much stronger without them? Natural selection of the human species. This is your religion.

And get a clue, the theory of evolution is neither an ideology nor a religion, just as the theory of relativity is not.

Evolution has not been proven to be an absolute fact in itself, like many theories so it is an ideology and theory. It is a tenet of atheism and only a theory.

Atheism is a religion. Darwinism is just an offshoot of Atheism. It's explanation of life. They are your religion. And your God is Evolution.

They die because of a greater fear than death or the false hope some religions endow weak minds with about eternal rewards for dying for it and literally invite its followers to die.

This is not accurate Plato. Most people die for their country which has no basis in religion. Would you die to protect your country, family, beliefs? Answer carefully.

Nura, if you fight and get to die in Allah's way and earn paradise will you not prefer death to life?

I have already proven from the statement of Allah himself that Believers does not love death. Many people don't seek to die, this is suicide. Logically, the preference of death would be the most honorable. As a brave soldier is praised for his death, so is the martyr. It is not death that Muslims prefer, it is the hereafter, by which can only be attained through death. No one loves death.

If what you are saying is accurate, they why are not Muslims around the world seeking death?

Which believer will cling to life after reading about the greater comforts of Allah's heaven?

It is better to die fighting for freedom than living a life of persecution and oppression. It is in these cases, where a Muslim should fight until he is victorious in life, or death.

Nura, afte reading 6:32 do you now understand why people of your religion are eager to die??

Eager to die? This is a gross slander. Muslims are not eager to die. If we were, it would be accomplished on a global scale. Muslims who are being oppressed are more eager to die for their cause because of their condition. I assume I would be too if my family was being slaughtered and raped. Death is inevitable for all of us. There is no need to seek it, because it will find you.

The verse gives hope for those oppressed that they can overcome their situation.

You got the part about a glitch in the system right but only for those who are natural born suicides. The brain circuitry or chemistry that Allah gave them went for a toss impelling them to toss themselves over a bridge or into the river.

Suicide has nothing to do with the brain. It is the loss of hope that people commit suicide. Despite whatever suffering happens to most people, they do not commit suicide. It's interesting that the most affluent nations in the world has the highest level of suicide, is this natural selection?

As for the others they were disappointed with the health and wealth that Allah doled out making them unbearably sad and deciding to end it all and make an early claim on His promise of rewarding those who suffer in this life.

As I stated earlier, affluent nations have the higher level of suicide, so this argument does not hold.

You also seem to have forgotten that Allah claims even suicides are a result of His decision written before the poor souls were born.

How could I forget that Allah is all knowing! He knows what we will do, we don't.

Where in your posts did you establish this proof? The fact that YOU cannot think about ceasing to exist after death? I grant you that it is Islamically foolproof evidence for life after death. But to unbelievers like me you will have to do better than that. As we are earth bound we need down-to-earth logic to be convinced not the logic of heaven.

I proved this with the fact that your existence does not end with death. Consciousness is not the sole proof of exsistence.

The Koran does say life after death is very biological. You have wine, women, boys like pearls, rivers of milk and honey and fruit of all kinds. And why can't I deny there is life after death??

There are many aspects to life after death; the physical and metaphysical. You can't prove that consciousness ends after death. How would you know then absolutely?

You can deny all you like. You will know one day won't you?

Consciousness stops when you are in a coma, when someone knocks you on the head, it stops when chemicals are injected into you. It stops when you are in deep sleep. Why not when you are dead which is a much worse condition than any of the above?

There are many reason why you are wrong. Consciousness does not stop in any of these situations. It is only altered. There is still thought during a coma, some people can remember hearing their loved one talk to them. Thought exists during sleep also. Any state where their thought, there is consciousness. It is my belief that thought also exist after death, therefore consciousness, although this consciousness is different from the temporal world.

He brought the world into existence because He desired to be worshipped. A chicken and egg problem all over again.

Allah was worshiped far before we existed. He was worshiped by far more obedient creatures who does not have the corruption and evil that a human soul is inclined to. I am grateful for my existence and do not distain it. The chicken and egg question is only a problem for people who not believe in God. When Allah wills something, he only says "be" and it is. There is your solution.

Let me repeat: evolution is not "concerned" about anything, including survival of the species. Unless you understand this point clearly it is pointless going on about evolution.

I will repeat, you are wrong! The whole basis for evolution is survival!

>>What would be the outcome if humans got ride of an evolutionary creation.<<

This statement has gone over my head. What does it mean?

I was establishing, as evolutionist has, that if religion evolved into the conscious of humans, than there must have been a necessary reason for it. My question is, how can you distain, an evolutionary invention?

I should have written ‘I can imagine myself not being run over if I jump into the oncoming traffic. Does that prevent a truck from hitting me?' Does it, Nura? If the truck does not hit because I imagined it would not, that would indeed be a great trick and life after death would also be possible.

What? This is not my point. I am not asking you if imagination makes reality. I am asking you can you imagine not existing, it is a very simple question in which you should have answered long ago, "no, of course not".

The reason for this infantile assumption is because Allah makes exactly such an infantile claim. Now you tell me that He is not all good. He claims time and again that He is the most merciful, the most beneficent. If He is not good then why these claims. Can a being who is not good be all merciful and benevolent? Who is being infantile?

Your beliefs that a suffering world entails a bad god is YOUR perception. My argument was, that most people are atheists because they don't believe that a God will allow suffering. It is based on an assumption that if there is a God that he is good, which does not necessarily have to be true, but is. Allah is the most beneficent, however, he is also many other names. The wisdom of his goodness is limited by our intellect and knowledge. If you hit your child on the hand, he may not understand why because of his limit of knowledge, but you would know that it is for his own good. Allah's relationship with humanity is based on trust that he is All-knowing and knows what's best for us regardless if we are able to understand or not. It is only our limit, not his limit of goodness.

Further, tell me exactly why God has to be YOUR perception of good, if he is the All-powerful?

You said just before this that Allah need not be good (which He most certainly is not as He claims to be the creator of evil also). Ask yourself whether a just being can create evil which by definition is unjust when inflicted on an innocent like the little girl suffering from cancer.

If he is not good, then you agree that he exists. Allah created everything including beings that are capable of committing Evil. If God is all powerful, then why couldn't he create evil? Your argument should be that a good God would not create evil, but that would cause you to admit that it is possible for God to exist although you may not agree with his ways. Yes, it's a catch 22 in your case. I will propose that Allah has power over all things and does as he pleases. He has ordained justice for himself so he is justice; he has ordained mercy for himself so he is merciful. These facts are not refuted because YOU can't understand him or his plans. Your disbelief is based on a limited amount of knowledge and perception.

A self-proclaimed ordainment of justice for Himself when He manifestly shows an evil nature and claiming that by making this ordainment He is absolved of being unjust is infantile. Not very different from our earthly dictators who can do no evil because they are themselves the law:

He is God, only he can self-ordain LOL. His will is not up for judgment. His doings are not up for judgment, but yours will be because he is the Judge; the only Judge. If he punishes you, no one will be able to reverse his sentence. He is the law.

Nura, you have a short memory. You have said elsewhere that Allah need not necessarily be good. And justice and good are superior "dispositions" but Allah spoils it all by also creating evil (113:2).

You have misunderstood! Allah is good because this is his promise to man, he ordained justice for himself and so he will not do other than this, and good is superior to evil. There is no question that Allah is good and just based on his promise. My argument was that he would still be the all mighty God if it were not the case. I know it's hard for you to grasp what all mighty means, but basically, it means that he makes the rules, even for himself. A God is a God despite his actions, no? Does a God stop being a God because his creation does not agree with him?

What wisdom is there in inflicting suffering unnecessarily, like Allah did to the girl? What wisdom is there in the tragedy that strikes, all under Allah's guidance, when earthquakes, and tsunamis strike without warning as Allah so gleefully points out often in the Koran for the silly sin of disbelief:

Evidently wisdom beyond your understanding. Do these things prove that there is no God? There are also many good things that happen! Why do you only focus on the bad? There are many wonderful things on this earth and beyond.

Allah may choose to punish a people in this life through various means. Only Allah knows the purpose of them. It is believed that earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are the forces that help the established of life on earth.

It is good to know that Allah allows Darwinian natural selection to allow us to become a stronger species instead of tiring Himself out by keeping on repeating the divine ‘be'.

Darwin was nothing but an observer of Allah's creation. Only an intelligent entity could create evolution. The process of evolution was created by Allah.

What cure has Allah given for the cancers we cannot cure yet. Is he waiting for someone to do the job for Him so He can claim credit for it in an obscure verse in the Koran?

Again, your argument is based on your limited knowledge! Do you believe that there will ever be a cure for cancer? If you believe that is it possible, than the cure is already here, just not discovered.

Your thought process is too complicated for me to follow. Especially your claim that there are ways to ease the pain by the mercy of Allah. Why did he create pain if He intended to ease it? For a lesson in forebearance?

Pain relievers, do exist, thank God! They were discovered using ingredients on this earth that Allah provided. People with Cancer use pain relievers for the pain. For women having babies, there are options, although I had my children natural, there a ways to ease the pain. I guess you should ask why it is so painful for women to give birth. I guess a stork should just drop babies off at the doorstep. Pain is needed for survival. Without it, many people would die. Allah has made many things easier for humanity. Life is much easier than it was 1000 years ago. I guess that is a matter of perception also.

Thank you for a very acute observation! I had missed that! Death does put a full stop to every suffering.

If you were suffering a horrible illness, you would probably believe it would be more merciful if you were given a lethal injection. It is an observation from practices in this country where families can make the decision to end a loved one's suffering by death. I believe that it is only an end to suffering for the believer. For the non-believer, it is only the beginning.

Why then do people commit suicide?

People commit suicide because they loose hope in God. As I have stated there are many people who live in very bad situations who do not commit suicide.

Great observations. Where is the connection with Allah's existence. Could they also not be evidence for Satan's existence or Al Lat or Al Uzza's for that matter?

You went over my head this time.

Lastly, your belief is more risky than mine. What harm am I doing by believing in a power greater than myself, treating my family good, giving charity, being a good citizen ect. I am happy to worship Allah and long for his promises with a light heart, full of hope and love. My question to you Plato- What if you are wrong? What if Allah does exist and everything that he has promised will come to pass. You will be the biggest looser because you are betting your eternity on nothing. This is a huge gamble! If I am wrong, what harm will it do me? I will just cease to exist, right? I won't have to care about any sin that I made in life because there is no judgment. I won't even loose in this impossible situation. In fact, I would be a winner regardless. My belief in Allah and the last day will be recognized more after my death and your belief will come later when it is too late. For you, there is nothing but uncertainty and the hope that I as well as other believers are not right. That is your only hope

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".