Nura: More about survival of the fittest, Occam's razor and I am up against a brick wall. Part IV

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 26, 2008 at 01:09

Nura, you wrote:

>>He is God, only he can self-ordain LOL.<<

I agree your statement does bring out laughter in me.

>>His will is not up for judgment. His doings are not up for judgment, but yours will be because he is the Judge; the only Judge. If he punishes you, no one will be able to reverse his sentence. He is the law.<<

COOL! Allah is the judge, jury and executioner! As if we were not aware of this after reading the Glorious Koran.

>>Nura, you have a short memory. You have said elsewhere that Allah need not necessarily be good. And justice and good are superior "dispositions" but Allah spoils it all by also creating evil (113:2).

You have misunderstood! <<

Oh yes, I just remembered, Islam is the most misunderstood religion on earth despite Allah having sent down a clear book.

>>Allah is good because this is his promise to man, he ordained justice for himself and so he will not do other than this, ….<<

Nura, just remember the little girl with incurable cancer. Cancer is good for her, right? Allah is ‘just' for killing the girl with incurable cancer, right?

>>….and good is superior to evil.<<

But if the good Allah can also create evil can good be really superior to evil?

>>There is no question that Allah is good and just based on his promise. My argument was that he would still be the all mighty God if it were not the case.<<

Now what you are admitting is that even if Allah behaves atrociously with us He will still be the all mighty. For sure He can be. Why can't you admit that Allah behaves sometimes with evil intentions and treats His creatures unjustly? Making a statement that allah is good and just because He has promised to be a good god does not make it so unless He proves it by His actions.

>>I know it's hard for you to grasp what all mighty means, but basically, it means that he makes the rules, even for himself.<<

What this means is that He makes the rules which say that even if He behaves like a sadist, He is not to be considered one on pain of even more sadistic torture.

>>A God is a God despite his actions, no?<<

Agreed. Only He should not claim to be all merciful when many of his past and present actions and those threatened on judgment day make Him look a sadist.

>> Does a God stop being a God because his creation does not agree with him?<<

Whoever said that? All it means is He is a powerless god as He cannot make His creation agree with Him. Humans can make computers which almost always agree with them. If they don't they just junk them, they don't throw them into an oven and heat them up. LOL

>>What wisdom is there in inflicting suffering unnecessarily, like Allah did to the girl? What wisdom is there in the tragedy that strikes, all under Allah's guidance, when earthquakes, and tsunamis strike without warning as Allah so gleefully points out often in the Koran for the silly sin of disbelief:

Evidently wisdom beyond your understanding.<<

True. Allah's wisdom is beyond my understanding. There are more than 4 billion people in the same boat with me. Allah has created a whole lot imbeciles to populate hell. You and your one billion plus Muslim sisters and brothers should be congratulated for understanding Allah.

>>Do these things prove that there is no God? There are also many good things that happen! Why do you only focus on the bad?<<

I focus on the bad because Allah keeps hollering that He is the most merciful, most benevolent and I need an explanation for the bad to reconcile this contradiction.

>>There are many wonderful things on this earth and beyond.<<

Sure there are. But why are there so many truly horrific things when there is an all powerful, most merciful, most benevolent Allah taking care of us?

>>Allah may choose to punish a people in this life through various means. Only Allah knows the purpose of them.<<

My little brain tells me that a JUST Allah would tell the poor sufferer why he is being made to suffer. Even a bad judge will not sentence a man without reading out the reasons. Oh sure Allah is Allah, Who has made the law that however unjust His punishment they are still just! If the poor guy should question His judgment then he is being unjust to Allah. Billions of imbeciles like me consider this unjust, whatever Allah and his faithful may believe.

>>It is believed that earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are the forces that help the established of life on earth.<<

But you did say that all Allah has to do, and He admits in the Koran as much, is say ‘be' and it is:

002.117
YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

003.059
YUSUFALI: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

>>Darwin was nothing but an observer of Allah's creation. Only an intelligent entity could create evolution. The process of evolution was created by Allah.<<

What you are saying is man, an intelligent creature, was caused by evolution, which is an intelligent process, and this in turn was caused by an intelligent Allah. My CHILDISH question is what caused Allah?

>>What cure has Allah given for the cancers we cannot cure yet. Is he waiting for someone to do the job for Him so He can claim credit for it in an obscure verse in the Koran?

Again, your argument is based on your limited knowledge! Do you believe that there will ever be a cure for cancer? If you believe that is it possible, than the cure is already here, just not discovered.<<

Cure for cancers are possible and many are being cured and the cure is there not because I believe cures for cancer are possible. Nor were they discovered in the ‘book of all knowledge'. Infidel scientists who have no idea what this book of knowledge contains discover them using their intelligence and hard work.

>>Your thought process is too complicated for me to follow. Especially your claim that there are ways to ease the pain by the mercy of Allah. Why did he create pain if He intended to ease it? For a lesson in forebearance?

Pain relievers, do exist, thank God! They were discovered using ingredients on this earth that Allah provided. People with Cancer use pain relievers for the pain. For women having babies, there are options, although I had my children natural, there a ways to ease the pain.<<

Why is there such a disconnect in your answers to my queries? You seem to be saying (almost) that pain is there so that the ingredients He has created to relieve pain can be discovered and used. Is Allah trying to amuse Himself by sending us off on treasure hunts? Only infidel scientists seem capable of discovering the treasures of Allah.

>> I guess you should ask why it is so painful for women to give birth. I guess a stork should just drop babies off at the doorstep. Pain is needed for survival.<<

Yes I have asked that question. Can you suggest one reason how a painful birth is good for survival.

I have come to the conclusion that painful births are due to Allah's special aversion to females. Read these verses:

053.019 -022
YUSUFALI: Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat? : What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!

004.117 : (The Pagans), leaving Him, call but upon female deities: They call but upon satan the persistent rebel!

He wants you to suffer pain during menstruation and child birth. He wants you confined to the home and live under the veil. He has no problem if your husband shares his affections with other women. He permits women's husbands to thrash (with a toothpick!) them if they fear disobedience on their part. He allows them to inherit only half what their brothers do. He has made them deficient in intelligence and highly emotional and so their testimony is worth only half a man's.

>>Without it, many people would die. Allah has made many things easier for humanity.<<

Yes pain is necessary to help us ward off danger to life. But what use is pain during childbirth? Allah has only added to women's misery by giving pain when they bring forth new life.

>>Life is much easier than it was 1000 years ago. I guess that is a matter of perception also.<<

It is not a matter of perception that life is easier than 1000 years ago. Childbirth has been made less painful and dangerous than Allah designed it to be by humans correcting and interfering with Allah's painfully bad design of bringing forth life.

>>If you were suffering a horrible illness, you would probably believe it would be more merciful if you were given a lethal injection.<<

Yes, I would like to end a life of total misery with no hope of any change.

>> It is an observation from practices in this country where families can make the decision to end a loved one's suffering by death. I believe that it is only an end to suffering for the believer. For the non-believer, it is only the beginning.

But Allah gives you no such hope. He does not guarantee you paradise. Paradise is given at His sweet will and pleasure. Let me quote what you yourself said earlier in this post: Allah does what he pleases out of his infinite knowledge. This means despite all your groveling before Allah, you could still end up in hell because of Allah's infinite knowledge!

He has given you a written guarantee of paradise only if you are killed or KILL in His cause :

9:111 YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Nowhere else in the Koran do you see such an ironclad promise.

>>People commit suicide because they loose hope in God. As I have stated there are many people who live in very bad situations who do not commit suicide.<<

This is disproved by the fact that atheists also commit suicide and by the fact that some physical conditions of the brain can also induce people to take such extreme measures.

>>Great observations. Where is the connection with Allah's existence. Could they also not be evidence for Satan's existence or Al Lat or Al Uzza's for that matter?

You went over my head this time.

You had written: The human body and mind is strong and can overcome amazing odds. This is all the proofs of Allah. No injure automatically insures death. There are people who are shot in the head and do not die. Doctors are amazed and how many people who were told they would die in a matter of months, and they don't die. These are all proofs in which Allah shows his existence to his creatures.<<

You pick out natural occurrences and claim that they are proof of Allah's existence. You have probably learned this from the Koran, where Allah (i.e. Muhammad) keeps pointing out natural phenomena like the wind, rain, seeds sprouting, the sun moon the spider, the honey been and claims it proves His existence. I am asking why can't I say that such phenomena are proof of Satan, or Al Lat or Al Uzza's existence. That is more logical because Allah claims to be all-merciful but we know there is a lot of evil in the world and He says satan is Evil.

>>Lastly, your belief is more risky than mine.<<

Is your faith based on some kind cost-to-benefit analysis?

>> What harm am I doing by believing in a power greater than myself, treating my family good, giving charity, being a good citizen ect. I am happy to worship Allah and long for his promises with a light heart, full of hope and love.<<

Your belief is no different from believing that a ghost lives in your attic and you go to sleep every night fearing the possibility that he might come down and strangle you and make you also into a ghost. You consult a poltergeist (a prophet) and he tells you you can be in the ghost's good books by praying five times a day at the grave yard where he is buried and if he is happy with your prayers and you behave less noisily at home he MAY leave you alone.

>>My question to you Plato- What if you are wrong? What if Allah does exist and everything that he has promised will come to pass. You will be the biggest looser because you are betting your eternity on nothing. This is a huge gamble!<<

This is a nice Islamic way of telling me that I should turn to Islam just on the off chance that Allah and his hell could be waiting for me at the end of time. I am not interested in living this life in fear of a ghost in the sky on the promise of a supposed emissary of this phantom that if I pray, follow his taboos, and special instructions there is an endless feast waiting for me.

>>If I am wrong, what harm will it do me? I will just cease to exist, right? I won't have to care about any sin that I made in life because there is no judgment. I won't even loose in this impossible situation. In fact, I would be a winner regardless.<<

A heads I win, tails I win situation? Go for Allah and makes yourself miserable by living a life full of fear in this world for His pie in the sky.

>> My belief in Allah and the last day will be recognized more after my death and your belief will come later when it is too late.<<

This reminds me of the cartoon where a rider (the prophets) dangles a carrot on a string in front of a donkey and it runs in whatever direction the rider turns the carrot.

>> For you, there is nothing but uncertainty and the hope that I as well as other believers are not right. That is your only hope<<

This donkey has seen the carrot for what it is, just a tantalizing vision and rotten to the core, and would rather graze on the bland grass under his feet and leave the deceiving rider pulling his beard out in frustration.

Nura, I know you are trying to make me ‘revert' and save my soul. But remember Islam teaches you that you cannot change what Allah has decided upon. Dawa is a useless wild goose chase for Allah's amusement to make Muslims try hard to gain entry to paradise. Allah had decided my fate even before He created the universe. There is nothing you can do to change it. But thank you for trying anyway.

Regards

Plato

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