Nura: Darwinism is dead. Long live Nuraism! Part III

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 6, 2008 at 20:12

Nura, you wrote:

>>10:12

"when affliction befalls man, he cries out unto Us, whether he be lying on his side or sitting or standing; but as soon as We have freed him of his affliction, he goes on as though he had never invoked Us to save him from the affliction that befell him! Thus do their own doings seem goodly unto those who waste their own selves."<<

Why did you call for a doctor when you or your dear ones fell ill?? The doctor is doing Allah's work on His orders, that it?

>>This ayat and the ones before were speaking directly of those who are arrogant. How many people when their life is at threat say "God help me and I will do……." We all know this saying, but when they survive, they forget. That is what this ayat speaks of. Allah will answer the call of the little girl, her suffering will end.<<

A plane crashes and the parents survive but their two children are dead. Are they to thank Allah for His mercy?? Allah will give the girl a painful death, that is how He ends her suffering.

>>10 And thus it is: if We let him taste ease and plenty after hardship has visited him, he is sure to say, "Gone is all affliction from me!"-for, behold, he is given to vain exultation, and glories only in himself.

Again, this ayat is speaking of the example above, it does not apply to everyone who is suffering.<<

What about those to whom it does not apply? For instance those who always had ease and plenty?

Millions of children like the girl would have cried for mercy from Allah, did He listen and give them a taste of His mercy?

>>Millions of people cry out for mercy. First, the crier will get's his reward and mercy from the god he cries on.<<

Pie in the sky.

>>Despite many people crying for help to different non-existent gods, Allah still sends mercy in many forms.<<

Your Phantom of the Universe, Allah, does not even help his ardent believers in distress. The Iraqis, the Darfurians, the Palestinians.

>> There are medicines that alleviate pain, love of family, and if none of this is available, there is the mercy of death.<<

The mercy of death would be greater than the mercy of Allah for the girl with incurable cancer.

>>Imagine if you had to suffer forever, no death. That is the supreme Evil, right? That is the hereafter for the disbeliever.<<

Allah is the source of this Supreme Evil, it exists in His domain, Hell. The earth is free of it.

>>Did the little girl bring on the evil of her own cancer?

Childish, Anyway…<<

Who did, if not Allah by claiming credit for everything including evil and also for even a bit of algae floating on the sea?

>>30:35 Have We ever bestowed upon them from on high a divine writ which would speak [with appro­val] of their worshipping aught beside Us?<<

Another silly question by the All-Powerful Allah. He claims to have written down everything i.e.knows beforehand what everyone will do or will happen to them:

003.145 YUSUFALI: Nor can a soul die except by Allah's leave, the term being fixed as by writing.

>>30:36 And [thus it is:] when we let men taste [Our] grace, they rejoice in it; but if evil befalls them as an outcome of what their own hands have wrought lo! they lose all hope!

Again, Allah is speaking about a specific people and situation. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE!<<

Ask yourself how evil could be the outcome of the sinners' hands when Allah claims to be the arbiter of everything Allah says: 009.055 YUSUFALI: Let not their wealth nor their (following in) sons dazzle thee: in reality Allah's plan is to punish them with these things in this life, and that their souls may perish in their (very) denial of Allah.

Strange, your Allah gives people the good things with the intention of punishing them for it (and for what? the silly crime of not believing in this phantom.)

For emphasis He repeats this same verse in 9:85. Yes Allah is not speaking of everyone. He is speaking of people He has in his infinite mercy decided to torture in hell.

Tell that to the suffering people of this world, like the little girl, whose only hope of help is death.

>>You would be surprised and how faithful children can be in adversity. Ask the Palestinian children and they well tell you why they love Allah! If only, people like you could have their faith. They don't question God's existence because of their plight, so why should you sitting comfortably.

Allah's help is always near, that is what they will tell you.<<

Children can be easily made to believe in fairy tales, Father Christmas, the tooth fairy, and best of all the Phantom of the Universe. Allah wants to make them suffer just to see how well they bear up and retain faith in Him. If Allah's help is near why do these children still suffer despite their pleas? They have to await death to partake of the Phantom's pie in the sky!

This is just a cry from Allah about His own powerlessness. Be patient until death takes you, little girl with incurable cancer, and all will be taken care of. LOL.

>>All cancer is not incurable. There are treatments that have developed from the mercy of Allah. Death is only the beginning of life.<<

?? When Allah makes these children undead in his castle in the air? If death is the beginning of life what is this life then, the world of the unliving ?

>>The message of the Quran is to not forget the true purpose of your existence which is the hereafter. If this life was perfect, a utopia, what would be the need for heaven.<<

Because for you this life is not perfect heaven must exist! Religious gobbledygook.

>>If there is no need for heaven, than what is the purpose for doing good, especially when good is a matter of perception<<

Have you thought of doing good because it is good and not because a phantom legislates what is good? This Phantom of yours makes killing good (9:111). What we perceive as good helps us live a decent life.

>>Death is the reliever of world tribulations so that we do not cling to worldly, materialistic, life.<<

If materialistic life is so bad why does Allah offer the exact same stuff in heaven multiplied a zillion-fold? Recall all those descriptions you quoted out of the Koran.

>> My hell would be the idea that this world is it. There is nothing more to look forward to. If I believed this, I probably would have committed suicide a long time ago and so would the majority of humanity.<<

This world is an unsavoury mix of heaven and hell. Because you want to look forward to something does not bring that thing into existence, unless you are Allah. You don't see the majority of atheists committing suicide, which disproves your assertion.

>>Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger,

What, you want heaven for free! Heaven is expensive<<

You seem to think that the suffering of Muslims on earth is some of currency that can be exchanged for the pleasures of heaven. Is Allah some of kind of trader who is going to charge for the wine, women and milk and honey He has stocked in Heaven?

>>Tribulations are tests. Tests that distinguish the good from the bad. They are necessary.<<

Tribulations as tests will make sense only if everyone is tested with the same questions. If your professor hands out wildly varying questions to his class (being born cancer, HIV, suffering from war, earthquakes, or being born with good health into a rich family and life in the West with no wars) how will you value the credits he hands out?

>> It is thru adversity that humanity has made the best contributions to society. It is thru tribulations that the good shine in superiority of all other creation.<<

How much could the suffering from cancer contribute to society? By letting doctors study her condition, or letting the rich give her money to pay the doctors? What chance has she to show her superiority. Is suffering pain without complaint a sign of superiority. Think a little. Those who suffer without complaint are destined to disappear from society and a society that encourages this will also disappear. Those who fight and overcome adversity will shine over those who are fatalistic.

>>Who else but those with weak minds will make such an idiotic statement. This is an invitation by Allah not to fight adversity and accept one's fate.

It is the best statement for the wise. Further proof that tribulations are designed to remind us of our goals. An idiotic statement is that Allah does not want us to fight adversity. What is Jihad then?<<

This is jihad:

002.216
YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

009.088
YUSUFALI: But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper

009.041
YUSUFALI: Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

Now tell the readers, Nura, these verses are out of context and applies only to the time of the Prophet. If you do that you have nullified these verses.

>> Only Allah knows our fate.<<

Allah does not just know our fate. He KNEW our fate even before we were born. He created some to suffer and some to have the good things in life. He could not stop the suffering because He had already written in His book of creation what was in store for them. Unbelievers know His words are worthless because He says He retains the power to abrogate His words:

013.039
YUSUFALI: Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth: with Him is the Mother of the Book

Why don't you work out this Islamic conundrum, Nura?

Also read this:

006.043 YUSUFALI: When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.

This verse is an admission by Allah that He cannot even design suffering that will make His own creatures learn humility. In this verse Allah admits that His lessons in suffering made people turn away from Him and Satan was the winner. And I say good for them. They showed some spunk.

>>We never know what is intended for us even if it looks bad. We should always have the hope that we will overcome and work for that. If fate is fate, then you would have no other choice but to accept it too. We say we believe in Allah either way, good or bad outcome. We are only retuning to our creator.<<

Need I say it again? Religious gobblydegook!

>>What good did Allah give the little girl in this world?

What! There are many people who have suffered in this life that can remember good in their life. Come one. There were good times.<<

What good times? Her mother suckling her and weeping over her shattered dreams?

>>What about those whose distress He does not remove, like the little girl. Should she show gratitude to Allah for making her suffer? And a nice little threat in typical Allah-style at the end.

More childish questions. He WILL remove the girl's distress. She cannot suffer forever.<<

Childish questions are sometimes the most devastating. Children often ask how do you know God exists, where did He come from, why is there suffering. And no religion has given a satisfactory answer yet. Your tying yourself up in knots is evidence of it.

Your answer that the little girl will not suffer for ever is infantile as even the girl knows she will be relieved of her suffering only when she dies.

>>The threat is very important. Allah knows that disbelievers care nothing about them.<<

What then is the all-powerful Allah's threat worth if He knows the disbelievers couldn't care less? Allah is reduced to threatening people in their after life.

>>Believers feel safe from them, so why are they there? They are there because they are warnings.<<

But you said Allah knows the disbelievers don't give a damn about his threats so what kind of warning is it?

The Quran is glad tidings for the believer and a warning for the disbeliever. What good are warnings of trials in the hereafter when most people do not believe in it? It is because, disbelievers will not be able to say on the day of judgment that they were not warned. The angels will ask "Where you not warned of this coming day?" They will "Yes, but we did not take heed".

An Islamic variety of gobbledygook as opposed to run of the mill religious type.

>> Allah cannot punish people unless they were warned first.<<

That is not what the Koran says. It says Allah's punishment is based on his whimsy:

003.026 YUSUFALI: Say: "O Allah! Lord of Power (And Rule), Thou givest power to whom Thou pleasest, and Thou strippest off power from whom Thou pleasest: Thou enduest with honour whom Thou pleasest, and Thou bringest low whom Thou pleasest: In Thy hand is all good. Verily, over all things Thou hast power.

008.032-33 YUSUFALI: Remember how they said: "O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty."But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.

Allah does not want the disbelievers to ask His pardon, which is why He refuses warn them by sending down His signs of death and destruction on them. Verse 3:26 informs you that Allah brings down whom He pleases. Where does these two verses leave your claim that it is impossible for Allah to punish those who were not warned.?

>>This is why messengers were sent. The Quran is the last warning and it does not rely on proofs of this life. The proof that Allah speaks of is in the hereafter. This is why it must be accomplished. The hereafter is what the Quran is all about. If it did not exist, what would be the use of warning a people who would never believe?<<

More Islamic balderdash. Proof? Read the underlined sentence. What you are saying is because your scripture contains warnings to people to believe, therefore the hereafter should necessarily exist. Can't you see this is nonsense? Your scriptures says sperm comes from somewhere near the backbone. This is pure nonsense. Because the Koran says so does not make it so. People even before Islam knew sperm came from the testicles which is why they castrated slaves, to prevent them from acting funny with their women or the other way around.

>>No respite even for you Nura, despite your belief in Allah.

I'm still living, that is my respite. As long as I'm alive, I can earn more and do better.<<

When or if you wake in an after life you can still not be sure that what you have earned is what Allah was looking for as whether you get rewarded or punished depends on Allah's whim. The only time He guarantees paradise is if you kill or are killed in His cause (9:111)

>>Allah is telling you He will torture people in this life and if they turn away He has His yet more torture waiting for them.

Allah is telling me that the righteous persevere. I have not had the easiest life, but I can say that Allah has always helped me.

I have never made a prayer that he did not answer!<<

Have you prayed yet to save the Iraqi children from American bombs? Why don't you? The Americans will turn tail and head for home under Allah's instructions on receiving your prayers!

>>This is why thru adversity believers remain believers. There prayers are answered in some way.<<

Sure their prayers are answered. LOL. The Mullahs have told that there is Allah special pie waiting for you in the sky for suffering and you salivate at the thought.

>>I will tell you a true story, may Allah strike me dead if I'm lying. …… I had a tooth that was a little loose and it hurt very badly. It was not ready come out yet and my father told me to go pray to Allah for help. He told me to prostrate on the floor, head to the floor, although, we were not Muslim yet…… I bowed down and prostrated and prayed for awhile, and I swear, my tooth fell on the tile while my face was still on the floor. I didn't feel….. My mother started crying.

……Of course people as yourself will say it was a coincidence as you believe your creation is a coincidence, however, for believers it is a truth, ……

It's sad that you cannot understand this.<<

How many of your other milk teeth did you get Allah to extract for you in this fashion? If Allah did that again and again for you then for sure Allah exists! The next time I have a bad tooth I will know what to do.

>>Allah wants to fill your hearts with fear and bear patiently….

Allah says that the best fear is the fear of displeasing him, not the fear of harm. The fear of harm is for those who don't care if Allah is happy with them.<<

Translation: Allah couldn't care less what happened to you. If you suffer because He created the evil of disease you better not displease Him by being displeased with what He has done to you under pain of eternal damnation.

Allah has told you that displeasing you will cause you harrm. What else is hell there for?

>>Allah says "fear me as I should be feared….. That is fear displeasing him, not for bodily harm, that is the lowest of faith. When you really love someone, you fear them being upset with you. You hate when they are angry with you. You try to keep them happy not because you fear that they will beat you, but because you hate when they are displeased with you. This is the highest fear and love…for those who don't care; they should fear the punishment of the fire.<<

The real reason you fear to displease Allah you have given at the end of your treatise on love: Fear the punishment of the fire!

>>Guard against the evil that Allah throws at you and persevere in your belief that He is merciful and benevolent and reap the rewards after you are dead!

Again, tests prove strength. Is the person who falls into temptation like the person who abstains? There are not the same which means all men could abstain if they chose. Evil temptations are from Shaytan, and ourselves. It's just that, a temptation.<<

What about men with no testosterone or no libido. Even Shaytan would not be able to get them up (pun intended) to any mischief. Will Allah judge them the same as He would men He had given an overdose of testosterone?

>>There are no invisible forces making us to do anything. Everything we do is a choice, so don't blame your bad choices on Allah, blame them on yourself.

Well, I will be damned…… Be careful, you could be..<<

Well, I will be double damned. Allah is an invisible force and He IS responsible for our choices. He says so Himself in many of his holy verses. 95:4-5 SHAKIR Certainly We created man in the best make. Then We render him the lowest of the low. (2:10, 6:125, 11:06 32:13….)

Strangely after these claims Allah absolves Himself of all responsibility: 4:79 SHAKIR: Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and …

Regards

Plato

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