Keith Williams: What is up front and also the bottom line is the incoherence of the Koran. Part I

Submitted by Plato (India), Nov 7, 2008 at 06:57

Hello again, Keith, you wrote:

>>Bottom line up front, we can't interpret the Qur'an, which is 1400 years old, with a 20th Century Arabic to English Dictionary.<<

Why this obsession with an outdated book? Allah with the powers He claims to have could have kept His book contemporary for all ages and understandable in all languages. You are arguing for a powerless Allah by saying what you have written above. The bottom line is the Koran is an incoherent book consisting of a jumble of verses many having no connection with each other, repetitive, flitting from topic to topic without rhyme or reason, with fables plagiarized from other scriptures and cultures, silly conversations in heaven with Allah and equally idiotic conversations between man and birds and insects on earth.

>> Secondly, there is no one all encompassing interpretation of the Qur'an.<<

Yes that is clear from the number of factions and sects Islam suffers from like any other religion. So much for Allah's claim to have given us a book easy to read and understand (54:40). Keith, you should admonish yourself for trying to get around Allah's clear message.

>>There are some radical and some moderate interpretations out there. You should be careful from whom you get your interpretation from my friend.<<

What is the basis for deciding what is the true interpretation and who has it? With so many interpretations floating around defying 54:40, how does one choose?

>>The events in the Qur'an happened 1400 years ago so you have to look at those events as they happened back then.<<

Is the Koran a book of history of what happened in a tiny area in and around Mecca and Madina? This is an interesting admission. Every time verses that are patently violent, immoral or unethical are exposed Muslims think they have a cool explanation in the fact that the Koran was revealed 1400 years ago and insist it has to be read in the context and the culture of the time. Cool. But then how is it applicable in the context and culture of our times.

>> Don't take them out of context and don't put them into your own context before you get the meaning of the context that it is talking about originally first. You have to interpret them with the Arabic idioms and meanings from that time and not just today's meaning of those Arabic words.<<

Gobbledygook. But let me do a tafsir on your statement. What you are saying is if I try to fit the Koran into my context without examining it from above, below and from all other possible angles it will be a misfit. What I am supposed to do is figure out the meaning of it when it was revealed by digging through the meaning of the words, the idiom of the Arabs at the time of revelation, and the hadith and sira compiled several generations later to figure out what the verses mean and then see if it fits into my context. I hope I have got it right up to here, Keith.

>> We use the allegory of those stories as a way of helping us today when situations happen to us in principal but not exactly applying them today as it happened back then.<<

Let me now take my favourite verse out of my favourite surah and try to apply to our times:

009.111 YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

As you can see this not part of any story. This, my dear Keith, is a contract drawn out by Allah to instigate and encourage Muslims to mass murder. This is made clear by one Islam's most respected commentators, Ibn Kathir:

Allah has purchased the Souls and Wealth of the Mujahidin in Return for Paradise

Allah states that He has compensated His believing servants for their lives and wealth -- if they give them up in His cause -- with Paradise. This demonstrates Allah's favor, generosity and bounty, for He has accepted the good that He already owns and bestowed, as a price from His faithful servants. Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Qatadah commented, "By Allah! Allah has purchased them and raised their worth." Shimr bin `Atiyyah said, "There is not a Muslim but has on his neck a sale that he must conduct with Allah; he either fulfills its terms or dies without doing that." He then recited this Ayah. This is why those who fight in the cause of Allah are said to have conducted the sale with Allah, meaning, accepted and fulfilled his covenant. Allah's statement,

(They fight in Allah's cause, so they kill and are killed.) indicates that whether they were killed or they kill the enemy, or both, then Paradise will be theirs. The Two Sahihs recorded the Hadith,

(Allah has made a promise to the person who goes out (to fight) in His cause; `And nothing compels him to do so except Jihad = in My Cause and belief in My Messengers. ' He will either be admitted to Paradise if he dies, or compensated by Allah, either with a reward or booty if He returns him to the home which he departed from.) Allah's statement,

(It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Tawrah and the Injil and the Qur'an.) affirms this promise and informs us that Allah has decreed this for His Most Honorable Self, and revealed it to His Messengers in His Glorious Books, the Tawrah that He sent down to Musa, the Injil that He sent down to `Isa, and the Qur'an that was sent down to Muhammad, may Allah's peace and blessings be on them all. Allah said next,

(And who is truer to his covenant than Allah) affirming that He never breaks a promise. Allah said in similar statements,

(And who is truer in statement than Allah)[4:87], and,

(And whose words can be truer than those of Allah)[4:122]. Allah said next,

(Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.), meaning, let those who fulfill the terms of this contract and uphold this covenant receive the good news of great success and everlasting delight. (http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=22054)

There you have it in black and white from one of Islam's most famous interpreters i.e. ‘fulfill the terms of this contract'. It also tells you that "There is not a Muslim but has on his neck a sale that he must conduct with Allah.."

You cannot possibly plead that this was a contract valid only for the prophet's time because the tafsir tells you every Muslim has a contract hanging around his neck. If you are a Muslim the contract per force applies to you. This in one verse why Muslims have a burning desire to achieve paradise by burning infidels.

The infidels are killing Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and practically any country a Muslim cares to name. Why are you not out there fulfilling your contract the terms of which hang down your neck?

>>The principals are the same and history repeats itself in that respect but the events don't happen exactly the same because we have a different way of life than 1400 years ago therefore we can't use the same tactics, techniques, and procedures as used back then but we can use the same principals such as don't lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc.... How we go about doing that changes but not the principals of doing them.<<

The principles are the same and history is repeating itself in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. The attacks (?) on Muslims are going on now in these countries. How will you rewrite the contract with Allah to suit the changed circumstances now? I can see a way out. The so-called defensive wars, bar two or three, were, if you know your sira, in actual fact all attacks on infidels. Naturally not until Muslims begin actually attacking the infidels should this contract be fulfilled. Neat, even if I say so myself.

>>They must be done but not in exactly the same way. For example, in war, we have principals of war and then we have tactics, strategy, techniques, etc............ Now how you go about achieving that principal will change from battle to battle based on the situations. You can't keep using the same tactics because why because the enemy will figure it out and beat you but you can't beat a principal. Another is surprise. You want to have surprise against the enemy but not be surprised by him. That is a very good principal huh? Well, how you go about achieving that principal? If you use the exact same tactics, techniques, and procedures then how will you achieve surprise my friend?<<

To give a demonstration about how to interpret the Koran you had to bring in an example of war and its strategies and tactics. Just goes to show that you can't explain even the good things about your religion without recourse to what is done during times of war.

>> Now, let me bring you back to principals in Qur'an. The commands given us to love and obey God and his commands is a principal that if you don't follow you go where??? Hellfire.<<

The infamous verse I have quoted below is an explicit command to fight the unbelievers. It is quite clearly a command to fight, it is not about some past event that should guide you. Why are you not out fighting your neighbours who are People of the Book.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Koran again explicitly warns Muslims:

009.038
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter

So, Keith, why are you clinging to earth. Have the strategies and tactics of war changed so much that clinging to earth is a much better option under the present circumstances?

I am not aware of any place in the Koran where it says to love Him. What I have read mostly tell Muslims to dread Him so much that their skin begins to creep with fear:

39:23 PICKTHAL: Allah hath (now) revealed the fairest of statements, a Scripture consistent, (wherein promises of reward are) paired (with threats of punishment), whereat doth creep the flesh of those who fear their Lord, so that their flesh and their hearts soften to Allah's reminder. Such is Allah's guidance, wherewith He guideth whom He will. And him whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide.

>>Now, the tactics that you use changes with the times because today we got things like internet, xxx, drugs, crack, which we didn't have 1400 years ago. Sure we had some evil things 1400 years ago to get into but the enemy has new tactics.

If you follow God's principals then you will find good tactics to fight against the evil tactics every time. <<

It is interesting that you club the internet with stuff like xxx, drugs and crack. Is the internet evil? It must be because Islam is having a tough time keeping up appearances with the truth about it being laid bare on the net.

You mention evils of the Prophet's time. Like you mentioned the internet, xxx, and drugs why did you not enumerate a few? Let me help. Slavery, child marriages and concubinage and savagely inhuman punishments. Your list pales in comparison with mine.

What principles did Islam set down to overcome these evils. I think you need more help here. Not a single one. Slavery continued into the 1960s and the rest of the world had to twist Saudi arms really hard to put an end to it. Child marriages continue to this day. Muslims follow the great example set by their prophet in marrying a six-year-old when he was fifth three. Concubinage continues in the form of misyar and muta marriages.

Savagely inhuman punishments like the prophet used to inflict, stoning, amputations are still defended by Muslims and continues to be practiced in some Islamic nations. Allah did not give us any tactics to fight these evils not then, not now. In fact He encouraged them.

>>For example, the internet is not evil in itself and can be used to do good and bad. Principal stay away from sin. Technique to stay away from evil? Stay away from the bad sites and seek refuge and help from God to help you stay away. Simple.<<

If it were that simple why are Muslim nations about the only ones that censor the so-called evil sites? Does Islam not teach Muslims what is good and bad. Other nations have no problem in keeping evil away. Despite all the censorship xxx sites receive maximum hits from Islamic nations.

Here is what a Muslim has to say:

"I was shocked recently to learn that internet surfers from Algiers had tried to access the site of a major child pornographic ring uncovered in Europe. Knowing of the huge costs of pornography to the USA and to U.S. businesses specifically, I decided to track down some statistics with respect to this ‘industry' globally and with respect to Muslim countries. Here is what I found.

According to Google Trends, over all years for which data has been gathered, seven out of the top ten countries searching for the word 'sex' on the internet are Muslim Countries. In order of viewing, these Muslim countries are : Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Algeria, Morocco, Indonesia and Iran. Please view this link from Google Trends. …... At the same time, it is important to note that, as of 2/10/07, no Muslim country was in the top ten countries searching for the word ‘porn' on the internet.

Latest Global Pornography Statistics:

• Industry size: $57.8 billion worldwide, $12 billion in U.S. alone
• ……….

Affecting Muslim Countries:

• According to Google Trends (2/10/07), Arabic, Turkish, Persian and Indonesian are 4 of the top languages in which the word "sex" has been searched for during all years for which data is available.
• Arranged in order within each country, here are some Muslim cities that led in the search for the word "sex" within specific countries are – Egypt: Giza; Saudi Arabia: Riyadh; Iran: Tehran; Jordan: Amman; Pakistan: Faisalabad; Indonesia: Bogor; Malaysia: Shah Alam;Nigeria: Ibadan; Algeria: Algiers; Mauritania: Nouakchott; Morocco: Casablanca; Tunisia: Tunis; and Turkey: Istanbul. "

http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/pornography-part-1-disturbing-statistics-for-muslim-countries/

The statistics tell you Islam does not make much difference to what people tend to do, evil or otherwise.

>> It may sound hard but it is easy if you have God on your side and seek refuge with him and his power. We can't do it without God. Yep, we are too weak myself included. Yes, I would fail without God. I am very, very, very glad that God has given us Islam and his way.<<

The pornographic statistics show that Allah is not on the side of Muslims. The Muslims are so weak that even Allah finds it difficult to help them and He has failed them. It is time for Allah to amend Islam with another prophet to strengthen (by reducing their sex drive) the Muslim world.

Regards

Plato

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