More about Egyptian Arabic

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Jan 9, 2010 at 09:07

Hi DNM

Hi Vijay and thank you for a very thought provoking reply

>Diglossia has been studied for the last 50 years and a good summary of that can be seen inhttp://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/messeas/diglossia/node3.html#SECTION00012000000000000000

Again what we have in Egypt (or may be even Lebanon and for this see the book recommended by Dr Pipes in his reply to my blog about Egyptian Arabic) is really a language.

>When a I said a low prestige dialect in a diglossic situation has no grammar, I meant there are no formal, written grammars for everyday language with some cultural status unless done by outsiders (like Dr.Pipes).

Well this might not be true. I urge you to read "Whose Pharaohs, Archaeology, Museums, and Egyptian National Identity from Napoleon to World War 1." this is a great review of the way Egyptians view themselves and their country, their language and their identity since the French invasion of Egypt in the very late 1800's. Egyptians rediscovered themselves and their culture and civilization with the help of great people the likes of el-Sheikh el-Tahtawi (in the mid 19th century) who dealt with taboos and examples here would be:

1. The fact that Allah regarded the Pharaohs were evil and pagan. And his answer to this polemic was: Egyptians should know about their ancestors the ancient Egyptians and they shoud be proud of them. And Indeed when the statue of Ramses II was moved a few years ago from Midan el-Mahata in the central of Cairo where it stood for many years to a safer place the whole city came to a holt and people lined the streets of Cairo clapping their hands while the statue was being moved along such streets.

2. el-Tahtawi also realized that Copts are the ancestors of today's Muslims in Egypt and that Egyptians should also be proud and get to know more about the Greco Roman period and not just the classical period. He also wanted the Copts to learn Egytpian/Coptic the real language of the people of Egypt.

3. He also made it very clear that what Egyptians speak in a unique language that is different from the language of Allah

So what I'm telling here is no secret

>The dictionary definition of a 'langugae' you have given are products of modern Western thinking, while in traditional societies,

No the defintion of a language back then or now is the same and so is diglossia

>The situation you described of the Islamists making speeches in Egyptian arabic, while it is printed in Standard Classical arabic are typical symptoms of that.

Well the problem here is we have a ligua sacra that no one speaks or even understand at times

>Here is a good article on Arabic diglossiahttp://www.innerbrat.org/Andyf/Articles/Diglossia/digl_96.htm

Sorry Egyptian Arabic is not really diglossia. And as I told you before there is no such thing as real classical Arabic as what we have in Ibn Manzur's Lisan al-3Arab (the great dictionary of the Arabic language) is really Middle Arabic that was already affected by many changes in the language since the death of Muhammad and much of this Middle Arabic would be foreign to Muhammad and his generation

>OTOH, if you do not want to call it diglossia , that is fine. Semantics is not the primary concern. I exactly understand the Egyptian situation you are saying and perhaps you are right in calling Egyptian Arabic another language. Anyhow, what matters ishow they themselves percieve 'their' langauge.

Well see below

>My guess is that one result of this Arabic diglossia is that people compartmentalise their thinking. Classical Arabic ,

This might be true. However, Egyptians love their language and they speak it with great pride and it is the language of the arts, the theater, the great movie industry (Hollywood on the Nile), the lyrics of the songs, TV and radio. However, Egyptians have to translate such language into what they perceive as modern classical Arabic and what a shame

Madbouli the owner of the greatest book store in Cairo once said that he gets few books written in Egytpian Arabic and he sells them like hot cakes and they are gone in no time (see Haeri). He blamed the fact that Egyptians do not buy many books because they are written in modern classical Arabic and not in Egyptian Arabic. He also credits the great Nageeb Mahfouz's success to the fact that that his writing style: Nageeb Mahfouz biyista3mil 3arabi sahl which I would translate as: Nageeb Mahfouz uses easy Arabic (which you can read as a hybrid of EA and MCA)

>while productive of literatures of the past cannot cope with modern, critical, rational thinking, Spoken language has no literary status and left in an intellectual limbo.

This is not the case in Egypt and even with Egypt being the power house of the arts in the Middle East Egyptians export their arts be it movies or theater or TV in Egyptian Arabic and funny thing is Egyptians expect other Arabs to know their language.

>To adapt to modern science, technology, politics and governence a foreign language like English or French is chosen.

This is the case in Egypt in higher education but for different reason and it stems from the history of al-bi3saat

>Since the ideology in Arabic countries comes from the medium of Classical arabic, it is resistant to exposure to science, technology, medicine in English or French.

This might be true

That is why university trained professors take to jihad or a trained surgeon like al-Zawahiri heads Al-Queda

And speaking of el-Zawahiri: He is a brand of Egyptians that always existed in this great country. If you read the diatribes of Shenouta (circa 4th century CE and one of the founders of the Coptic Church) against his own "pagan" ancestors and inciting his followers to attack and kill the pagans then Ayman el-Zawahiri is not any different. So how did the pagans in Egypt dealt with Shenouta's terrorism? In typical Egyptian fashion they took him to court and he stopped. I guess plus ca change ;plus cest la meme chose

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