Jesus... is God!

Submitted by Servant of Christ (United States), Aug 5, 2007 at 17:44

Hey Ridwan! Thanks so much for a reply. I haven't gotten any response from this site recently but I certainly welcome and appreciate it. Most of your points I have already gone over with the other Muslims but I will make it easier for the both of us by re-answering them.

Have you seen anywhere in the Bible that Jesus says "Worship me, I am your god"? no then why do you worship him. But in the Quran, Allah clearly states that worship me etc...

No, Jesus never directly said, "Worship me." The Jews would have stoned him on sight had he said that. But Jesus certainly ALLOWED people to worship him:

"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:28-29 NIV) emphasis added

Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." (Matthew 14:33) NIV emphasis added

"Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him." (Matthew 28:9) NIV emphasis added

"Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy." (Luke 24:42) NIV emphasis added

"Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him." (John 9:38) NIV emphasis added

The Old Testament makes it clear that Messiah Jesus was to be worshiped:

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14) NIV emphasis added

Jesus' favorite name for himself was Son of Man. Daniel makes it clear that Jesus is to be worshiped.

I encourage you to examine the context in the Injils or Gospels to make sure if I kept the verses within context.
In the Bible, Jesus was sent to fix the flaws of mankind, look, just say I'm a carpenter, i make a table, I dont have to become a table to find out and fix the flaws of the table. So if he was God, he doesnt have to turn into his creation and get himself crucified, God is greater than that, in Islam we cant even imagine who Allah is. Muhammed (S) was a Prophet, which is true because hes made many prophecies, like the conquering of the Persians years prior to that event, or conquering of Rome and Egypt. Or the signs of The Day Of Judgement :

I must differ on this matter. You know the Jewish law I presume? We know that God is holy and just, so he cannot allow sin into Heaven. God is also loving as our both religions agree on. Now sure, God has enough power to send every person into Heaven but that's not just is it? A judge can't just let a person off his punishment and if he does then he's not being just. In short, that judge is evil. God is not evil and cannot allow evil in Heaven.

The punishment of sin is blood. In the Old Testament, the blood of animals sufficed temporarily. So the only way God could allow his sinful people into Heaven and yet remain both just and loving was to do justice and yet provide a way out. So he came down in humanly form so that he may shed his blood, the price of sin, so that we can enter Heaven. See? Justice is paid, which is death, and mercy is still shown.

Now let's return to the judge imagery. Suppose that judge pronounced the sentence on the criminal which was say, $10,000. Right after the sentence is pronounced, the judge gets off his place and pays the fine for the criminal. Justice is served, mercy is shown. The judge remains just and loving. This image cannot fully depict the love the Messiah has for you.

(And dont den these because these are all true and his happening in Western Society Today)

1. Music and musical instruments will be found in every home.
2. People will indulge in homosexuality.
3. There will be an abundance of illegitimate children.
4. There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
5. People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
6. Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business establishments.
7. The Masjid will be decorated, but the hearts of the people will be devoid of guidance.
8. The courtyards of Masjids will be built beautifully and high mimbars (pulpits) will be erected.
9. Gangsters and evil people will prevail.
10. Various wines will be consumed excessively.
11. When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents).

I'm not going to deny that these things happened. But his prophecies were written down so late. Furthermore, many are extremely vague. If I 'prophecy' that someday the world will discover a petroleum free vehicle, then would that make me a prophet? No, because my 'prophecy' was easily able to be predicted. Observe the Biblical prophecies:

I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. (Ezekiel 26:3-14) NIV.

After Ezekiel prophesied that, Nebuchadnezzar struck at Tyre. Indeed, he destroyed the coastal parts of Tyre (Tyre consists of an island and the coast). The central part of Tyre was not destroyed (the island) but the coast or 'mainland' was. Anyways, all of verses up to 12 uses singular pronouns like "he, his", but immediately after, verse 12 reverts to plural pronouns. We know from the first group of verses that God said he would send many nations to strike down Tyre. So we know that Nebuchadnezzar's role has ended after razing the coastland but now the other nations will have their chance.

We know that Alexander the Great attacked Tyre. He built a bridge to the island of Tyre with the ruins of coastal areas, thus fulfilling the third part of the prophecy: "They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. (Ezekiel 26:12) NIV emphasis added"

He then either killed the Tyreans or sold them as slaves, thus scattering them. The ancient city known as Tyre was now ruined and rebuilt but not with the people that God prophesied against. Over the course of history, more nations attacked this new Tyre such as the Muslims.

It is now known as the Del of Sur and is a place where fishermen spread their fishnets. See the accuracy and specificness of this prophecy:
1. Tyre would be attacked by many nations.
2. Nebuchadnezzar would raze the coastland/mainland.
3. The rubble would thrown into the ocean, as Alexander did to build a great bridge.
4. The place would never be rebuilt. Now known as Del of Sur which consist of ruins and remains.
5. Place where fishermen spread their fishnets.

There are more which I will gladly provide if you desire.

These are all true, are you telling me Muhammed (S) was a liar when he said so many truths, and he was also known as truthful even before becoming a prophet, he could never lie about Allah as he wasnt looking for power, wealth etc, we see from his life he led the most simple life. Even Jews knew (including one of his uncles) that he is a Prophet, but didnt become a Muslim fearing he will lose his high status among the Quraysh. And all his actions always lead to good things, even physically,
The way he used to eat, crouching, with the right hand with three fingers, had all its benefits.
The way he used to sleep, on his right-side, had it's benefits.
The way he cleaned his teeth (Miswak) has more benefits than that of T/paste and brush.
The way he used to deal in business, had it's benefits.
The way he did all his things all had its benefits.
And in the Quran it tells us to follow him, if Muhammad has bought nothing but good.I am saying that Prophet Muhammad made very vague prophecies and that many of them were documented centuries after his death. We see that Muhammad indeed acquired power, wealth, and women as he commanded from his people.

I'm not sure how the rest are relevant to his prophethood. I also wonder why Muhammad's right and all the other Jewish prophet's are wrong.

We believe Jesus was a prophet of Allah because of the ways Muhammed (S) described him, even Priests themselves today say that the Jesus in Islam is approximately 3 times more accurate than to the Jesus in the Bible, so if Islam is more accurate, then it is more logical to believe something a lot more vivid or clear. And that in the prophecy in the Bible says that a prophet will come and will be like Moses, it explicitly refers to Muhammed (s)

This is a common argument. I'd like a reference for how priests say that Jesus in Islam is more accurate. I will quote the verse:

The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. (Deuteronomy 18:15) NIV

The passage says that the it would be a brother of Levites. See that the entire Chapter 18 is talking about Levites, starting on verse 1. So therefore it would be a brother of the Levites, one of the other 11 tribes. Muhammad was an Arab so he wasn't Jewish, automatically proving that he can't be the Prophet. Jesus Christ was a Judahite, making him eligible for this title, the Prophet.

The unlikes of Jesus to Moses:
1. Jesus is a God, but Moses was not.
2. Jesus died for the sins of the world, Moses did not.
3. Jesus wen to hell for three days, Moses did not.

Not sure about whether Jesus went to Hell or not. And yes I agree with the first two. However, we're comparing similarities not differences.

The likes of Mohammed to Moses:

1. Moses had a father and and a mother, Muhammed (s) as well.
2. Moses was born the natural way, Muhammed (s) as well.
3. Moses got married and had children, Muhammed (s) also got married and had children.
4. Moses and Muhammed (s) were accepted by their people in their very lifetime
5. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, ofter two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him.
7. Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
8. From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

9. "As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT IAM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: IAM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they al wasy levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed.

10. "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.(10) Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

11. "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."
If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "L IKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus!

Certainly John 1:25 does refer to a Prophet. But that title belongs only to Jesus. Now let me address all eleven points with one statement. All these 'similarities' are things that almost EVERY character in the Old Testament share. For example, Isaiah could easily be this prophet since he had a wife, children, died, was not God, etc etc. Albeit, he did not give a Law but God is unchanging. It's already said in the Bible that the prophet had to be JEWISH.

Anyways, if we are to compare similarities between Jesus and Moses, we have to compare UNIQUE ones that nobody else or almost nobody else has:

1. Both spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness.

2. Both were born in times of foreign rule.

3. Both were threatened by foreign rulers (Pharaoh tried to kill Moses, Herod tried to kill Jesus).

4. Both had radiant faces. Moses after seeing God and Jesus after the Transfiguration.

5. Both gave covenants. Moses gave the Old Covenant (Exodus 24) and Jesus gave the New Covenant during the Last Supper.

6. Moses set the Israelites free from the shackles of Egypt, Jesus set everyone free from the shackles of sin and death.

7. Moses gave the water from the rock, Jesus gave the Living Water (Holy Spirit).

8. Moses gave manna from heaven. Jesus was the Everlasting Bread.

Shall I continue? You may challenge any one of my points if you wish.

We Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the "Messiah", which word is translated as "Christ".(16) We are not contesting the "thousand and one prophecies" which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT ref er to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the Holy Prophet MUHUMMED!" Jesus was definitely not god, but a Prophet, who came to fulfill the prophets before him.

I understand that. But if you deny him as the Messiah, then why do you deny he's the Son of God. You and I both believe that God does not have a wife, but the term 'Son of God' is used as a way of expressing the closeness between the Father and Jesus. And the 1001 prophecies point to Jesus as God. Check out these:

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 NIV) emphasis added

So the Messiah would be Mighty God.

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times. " (Micah 5:2 NIV) emphasis added

The Messiah would be from ancient times or "from everlasting". Only God is eternal and not under the constraints of time. This verse also points to the divinity of the Messiah.

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." (Psalm 110:1 NIV) emphasis added

God says to God? It wouldn't make sense unless the Father is saying this to the Son.
I dont know if you can read this, but please reply.

I apologize to the delay. Again, I thank you for your response.

God Bless You Ridwan!

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