To Sohail

Submitted by Servant of Christ (United States), Oct 20, 2006 at 18:09

Servant of Christ you said the following:

So explain how those teachings do not apply to an overall circumstance. Since there were many other verses where violence used violence as a means of conversion or torture.

Now those verses do not apply to today and cannot be used for violence, the reason terrorist's use these verses are because it's the way there interprets the verses and they take out certain verses to justify the killing of innocent people. Look at the following verses in which people like bin-laden use to try and kill people:

I can easily use that argument against you by saying that you misinterpret Isaiah to make it seem as if Muhammed is the one he is referring to. I can agree however that verses can be misinterpreted.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); Quran 9:5

See terrorists or critics of Islam don't complete the verse and don't mention the verses before 9:5 and after 9:5 to get the verse above but if there did mention those verses you would get this:

(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. Quran 9:4-6

Unfortunately, the Muhammed's biography does not reflect his own teaching. He was known to insult the pagans was he not? He launched the attack, it was not retaliation.

Then you can see that the verse on about what should happen to pagans who broke they treaty or went against the prophet.

But Deut 13 talks about how to treat people who worship other Gods and how to treat prophets who worship others Gods and it also tells Jews how to treat your own brother, sister, closest friend or any other person who turns away from Yahweh:

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Perhaps that is why the Jews were so skeptical to Muhammed. They asked him questions that the prophet couldn't even answer about his own God. What's your point? God does not like false prophets.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Deut 13: 1-11

Again, what is your point? This is the Old Covenant, whom the JEWS BINDED THEMSELVES TO. They swore the oath to obey these commands. When they broke it, and God had to punish them, he knew that he needed to give the New Covenant so that the people would no longer fall away.

Then you said the following:

And next, the prophecies for Jesus Christ were made in the Old Testament. That is around 2000 BC-400 BC.So that means that anything in the Bible is supported by the OT which was made far earlier than many of those 'pagan religions.'

So servant of Christ have you got an 4000 year old bible and if you have then prove to us.

Sorry, I meant 1500-400 BC.

Of course, of course. Let's first talk about how the Bible is written. For all the books, except Genesis and teaching books (Psalms, Proverbs, etc), the Bible is written in a historical way. The very first book was Genesis which was written by Moses, who also wrote the other 4 books of the Pentauch.

Critics say that the earliest writings before the 10th century BC. Remember, the OT was copied, so the earliest copy we have today may not even be the earliest. Also, the Bible's archaeology matches up with the timeline around it and we use that to date the Bible as well.

Job could have been written in any time.

Exodus was written about 1440 BC it is believed. Achaeology evidence for the Bible includes:

The existence of Canaan. For a long time, the existence of the Canaanites were thought to be a myth.

Archaeologists have found tablets with writings of Patriarchs dating as early as 2300 BC.

And there are numerous more, such as the existence of Jericho and prophecy verifications. If you desire more evidence, I will spend more time on this topic.

Christianity is a pagan religion and I am going to prove to you:

Similarities between Pagan and Christian practices

Many early Christians celebrated Jesus' birthday on JAN-6. Armenian Christians still do. In Alexandria, in what is now Egypt, the birthday of their god-man, Aion, was also celebrated on JAN-6.

Christians and most Pagans eventually celebrated the birthday of their god-man on DEC-25.

According to an ancient Christian tradition, Christ died on MAR-23 and resurrected on MAR-25. These dates agree precisely with the death and resurrection of Attis.

This is a weak argument. Atheists use this argument to try to make it seem as if Christianity borrowed from other religions. First, this myth is crushed because Christianity had multiple accounts of Jesus (Luke, Mark, Matthew, and John) and it had evidence for the existence of Christ.

Basicly, what atheists do is, they look into every single cult, every single religion, every single ritual, and every single superstition and grab every small thing that is even similar to Christianity and they say that, "Christianity came from these religions."

Baptism was a principal ritual; it washed away a person's sins. In some rituals, Baptism was performed by sprinkling holy water on the believer; in others, the person was totally immersed.

Okay, you have your information messed up. Baptism does not wash away sins, it is a symbol of the New Covenant, just like circumcision was the sign of the Old Covenant.

The most important sacrament was a ritual meal of bread and wine which symbolize the god-man's body and blood. His followers were accused of engaging in cannibalism

You pull out a very obscure idol and start saying that Jesus was based off of this. How on earth could they make something paganistic come from a divine God of the Jews that works in total unison with the Old Testament.

Early Christians initiated converts in March and April by baptism. Mithraism initiated their new members at this time as well.

Actually, Mithraism was never spread, unlike Christianity. In fact, it is far more likely that Christianity influenced these pagan religions rather than vice versa.

Early Christians were naked when they were baptized. After immersion, they then put on white clothing and a crown. They carried a candle and walked in a procession to a basilica. Followers of Mithra were also baptized naked, put on white clothing and a crown, and walked in a procession to the temple. However, they carried torches.

See above.

At Pentecost, the followers of Jesus were recorded as speaking in tongues. At Trophonius and Delos, the Pagan priestesses also spoke in tongues: They appeared to speak in such a way that each person present heard her words in the observer's own language.

Too bad the Pentecost had a prophecy to go along with it and religious meaning. The prophecy was made far earlier than the Pagan priestess rituals.

An inscription to Mithras reads: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." ₁ In John 6:53-54, Jesus is said to have repeated this theme: "...Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (KJV)

See above.

The Bible records that Jesus was crucified between two thieves. One went to heaven and the other to hell. In the Mithras mysteries, a common image showed Mithras flanked by two torchbearers, one on either side. One held a torch pointed upwards, the other downwards. This symbolized ascent to heaven or descent to hell.

See above.

In Attis, a bull was slaughtered while on a perforated platform. The animal's blood flowed down over an initiate who stood in a pit under the platform. The believer was then considered to have been "born again." Poor people could only afford a sheep, and so were literally washed in the blood of the lamb. This practice was interpreted symbolically by Christians.

See above.

There were many additional points of similarity between Mithraism and Christianity. ₂ St. Augustine even declared that the priests of Mithraism worshiped the same God as he did:

I don't care what St. Augustine did to be honest, if it doesn't have anything to do with the doctrine than it's not Christian. Please give me a quote, and even if you did it still holds no relevance.

Followers of both religions celebrated a ritual meal involving bread. It was called a missa in Latin or mass in English.

See above.

Both the Catholic Church and Mithraism had a total of seven sacraments.

Catholicism is not the discussion. Christianity, however is.

Epiphany, JAN-6, was originally the festival in which the followers of Mithra celebrated the visit of the Magi to their newborn god-man. The Christian Church took it over in the 9^th century.

See above. (You fail to take notice that the Gospels were written so much earlier than the 9th century).

The above article shows that Christianity is very similar to pagan religions.

Sohail

Or perhaps pagan religions are so much similar to Christianity. I wait for your attempts to show another prophecy of Muhammed. And again, this is bad logic. Your religion is Islam, and they accept the Gospels, however, you seem to be saying that the Gospels are false. The Jesus the Myth Argument will not work because there is evidence that he existed from non-Christian scholars such as Pliny the Younger, Josephus, and the Torah.

May God Bless You All

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