More Trinity

Submitted by Servant of Christ (United States), Dec 14, 2006 at 22:14

Since you couldn't be bothered to give the chapters of the verses you were referring to I could only explain the following:

Actually if you noticed, I did offer sources. Unfortunately, they were messed up by the site. But that's okay.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) "1 In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth."

Hebrew has several words for G-d. A common one is the word used here in Genesis 1:1 -- Elohim. The grammatical form of this word is plural, leading missionaries to say that G-d must therefore be plural. What they don't realize is that many Hebrew words have a plural form but a singular meaning -- for example water (myim), heaven (shamyim), life (chaiim), and face (panim) to mention a few. "Yesh l'yilda panim yafot" means the girl has a pretty face. Using the missionary logic, one would say something like that the poor girl is two faced.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) "26 And G-d said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion"

The assertion here is that because the verb is in plural form, it indicates that G-d is plural. This reasoning seems extreme to me. A Jewish Rabbi said that G-d is talking to the angels, and enlisting their cooperation in the creation of humans, which seems much simpler.

That has been exactly what I have been trying to say. Why do you think it is plural (it is the pronoun that is plural not the verb)? I have said that echad means compositely one. Angels do not create things. At least, in the Bible, they do not. Creation is an ability only God has and no one else has.

I am surprised any missionary would use this, since it states the oneness of G-d. However, some, (I don't know how many) retranslate it to: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our G-d, the LORD is a compound unity." This sounds sort of funny, but they are literally trying to change the meaning of the word "ehad" from "one" to "compound unity".

The word is echad, not ehad. Although the word echad may have more than one use. English has numerous examples. Are you saying that man and woman literally become one person? I beg to differ.

By this logic, three minus two would equal a compound unity, and dance instructors would give their students the beat by counting "compound unity, two three." The number 21 (esreem v ehad) would be twenty plus a compound unity.

Again, the word echad can be used in more way than one. I fail to see how one way of using the word is relevant to another way of using the word.

Biblical Hebrew is the same. For example:

• Kings 2 Chapter 24: 18 "Zedekiah was twenty-one years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-one years in Jerusalem." This is the most difficult because to say that the 'one' here means a compound unity would require the 'twenty' to be the same. You Christian missionaries would have to invent a whole new system of numbers

No. Again, are man and woman truly one person? Are they some sort of hybrid being? Or are they compositely united? And for future reference, I am not a missionary.

Proverbs 30: (KJV) 2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. 3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

You Christians seize on the word "son," saying that since the fourth verse describes things only G-d can do, this 'son' must be Jesus.

The full context is different. The writer, modestly proclaiming his own ignorance, asks who can do all of these wonderful things. In effect, he says, "I am ignorant and do not know what man can do this. Can you identify him for me? Can you identify his family?" Of course, no one can do these things except G-d. Asking for the name of a family member is somewhat comparable to the modern phrase "You and what army?" to indicate something which someone cannot do. The writer is emphasizing that humans can not match the abilities of the divine. It is a rhetorical question, sarcastic in nature, and has no answer. That is the point.

Are you sure that is what he is trying to say? Why do you think the Jews believed in the Messiah as God's own son? Why do you ignore what the Injils say? The Jews questioned Jesus whether he is God's own Son!

Note just two verses later: "6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." To say the chapter refers to Jesus is indeed an addition.

Ironicly, that's exactly what Islam tries to do with all Scripture. I am saying that is one of the few references of Jesus.

The most thing is to remember the following verse:

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)

See? You accuse me of misusing verses yet you do the same. This verse talks about how God is infinitely perfect unlike man. God can become man but not vice-versa!

Here are the verses with the Angel of the Lord:

Let me introduce this section with what God the Father said:

But," he [God] said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." Exodus 33:20 NIV

There above it stood the LORD, and he said: "I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying (Genesis 28:13 NIV) emphasis added

The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:27-30 NIV) emphasis added

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank. (Exodus 24:9-11 NIV) emphasis added

The angel of the LORD came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, "The LORD is with you, mighty warrior."

13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the LORD is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the LORD bring us up out of Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."

14 The LORD turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"

15 "But Lord ," Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."

16 The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."

17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."
And the LORD said, "I will wait until you return."

19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the LORD touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the LORD disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"

23 But the LORD said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die." (Judges 6:11-23 NIV) emphasis added

See? This verse shows us that the name, YHWH, was used as well as Angel of the Lord. The Angel was called LORD a few times during this passage. A similar account is shown below:

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you."

16 The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD." (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.)

17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?"

18 He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding." 19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD. And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.

22 "We are doomed to die!" he said to his wife. "We have seen God!"

23 But his wife answered, "If the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this." (Judges 13:14-23 NIV) emphasis added

So Manoah thought that the angel was just an ordinary angel at first because he did not realize that this angel was the pre-incarnate Son. Later, he realized that this was the Angel of the Lord and thus was terrified because he knew that he had seen God face to face. Of course this is not the Father because if it was then he would have been dead. So it must have been another member of the Godhead, the Son. Consider the striking parallel between verse 18 and this verse:

12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. (Revelations 19:12 NIV) emphasis added

Jesus also said that nobody has seen the Father. Paul mirrors this message. Of course, you don't seem to accept the New Testament (at least not the Apostolic Letters).

"Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.

13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

14 "Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out his purpose against Babylon;
his arm will be against the Babylonians.

15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission.

16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.

17 This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go. (Isaiah 48:12-17 NIV) emphasis added

From the first verse, we can tell that the passage refers to God. The Son is speaking in this passage:

When I saw him [Jesus], I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. (Revelation 1:17 NIV) emphasis added

Let me repeat verse 16:

"Come near me [Jesus] and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me [Jesus],
with his Spirit. (Isaiah 48:16 NIV) emphasis added

God is saying, "Come near to me" And later God says, "God has sent me" Could this be Isaiah? No, because Isaiah is not the first and the last. So God sent God with his Spirit. This makes perfect sense if we say that the Father sent Jesus with his Spirit (which the Gospels support).

This will do for now.

Will you continue persisting against responding to the verses I offered that showed Jesus saying that he was the Son of God? Can a prophet of God truly ask for the devout believers (and others) to trust in him for their salvation? Jesus was a liar, a madman, or the Son of God (hopefully you say the third option), there was no other possibility!

May God Bless You All

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