Response to Akbar's "Numbers Do Matter"

Submitted by Servant of Christ (United States), Oct 4, 2006 at 17:03

When you state that Muslims spread religion by the sword you did not give a logical example. When someone is spreading religion by the sword means that they make you accept their religion and leave your religion. In some predominant Muslim countries there is a belief that if you leave Islam you should be executed. The holy Quran refutes this by stating that there should be no compulsion in religion.

My logical example was that Muslims keep their people from knowing other religions by fear. Your text gives verses that depict violence:

Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?... Excerpt K 4:074-077 Set 15, Count 38-41

take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them... Excerpt K 4:089-091 Set 17, Count 43-45

...when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates...(as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah... Excerpt K 47:004 Set 69, Count 136

This is your doctrine right?

Since you are a Christian, your history should tell you that there will always be people to intrepret the word of God for their own purposes. Christianity has a history in blood. Christianity is being spread by the sword in both Iraq and Afganistan. The U.S. military has destroyed both countries and then allowed Christian missionaries to go in and provide services to the people.

That's a bad perspective of the situation. The Christian missionaries are going in because they see the need for Christ in the area. Those people there, they are struggling, starving, dying, why not help them? Just because the US is predominantly Christian does not mean the US is going in on a Crusade. The US is a FREE-RELIGION nation, hence the seperation of Church and State. If Christians are so bad, why are the Christians being persecuted and killed?

You keep bringing up the Pope. history shows that the Pope gave Hitler his blessings for the holocaust. History shows that the Pope gave Europe his blessings to destroy Africa. History shows that the Pope gave whites his blessing for taking Africans out of humanity in name of the slave trade. If people are worshipping God correctly, then numbers do matter. Religion is not for God, it is for man. God does not need our worship. We are born with the need to worship something, so if we are not worshipping God, then we are worshipping something that is enslaving us. The proper worship of God emancipates us from all forms of false worship. It is true that it does not take many to change the world, but it does take a few with the proper worship to lead the way for the many to emancipate themselves from false worship.

I brought the Pope up once... Hitler was not a Christian, he was a neo-pagan. I've never heard of the Pope giving blessings to Hitler, if he did, then he's definately not Christian. Hitler tried to justify his reasoning by saying Christianity was with him, but it was not since Christians were persecuted as well as Jews. I don't recall any of these Pope blessings, again, this is not Christianity but wicked/misguided men giving permission. This is strawman, you say what the Pope did was immoral (please link or something) which I will agree if you can show me the evidence that someone did this, however, Christianity's doctrine neither condones nor encourages these actions while Islam encourages violence.

Wrong, if religion was for man than atheism would be everywhere. God does not need us to worship him, you missed my point about objectivity and subjectivity. I don't see how any of this is relevant to numbers proving the existence of a religion's God. Now the problem is, which religion is right or wrong?

Again, let me summarize the topic about numbers. Numbers DO NOT prove the existence of God. You're arguing something completely different from mine apparently. Look we can have a test on this, put some object in front of you, then roll a dice 50 times. Suppose each time you roll a '1' that means this person believes the true God. Pretend the inanimate object you chose symbolizes God. Every number besides '1' means you are worshipping a false God. Tally up how many people 'worshipped' the right ones and how many people 'worshipped' the wrong one.

Now, the argument originally was (although you seemed to have changed the topic) the number of believers decide which religion is true (thus humans create the true God). So if you did that short experiment (you didn't have to but it gives some sense to the topic), unbelievers most likely greatly outnumbered the believer; so your original argument was, because more people don't believe in the existence of this object, then the object must not exist! Now obviously that's foolishness!

I think what you were trying to say was, that it matters when people believe in the true God. Yes, that means a lot, however you seemed to have played with my words to mean something they do not. Yes, it matters in how many people attain salvation but because more people believe this does make this religion true.

May God Bless You All

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".