Scripture

Submitted by Servant of Christ (United States), Dec 15, 2006 at 06:57

If you read Isaiah carefully, you can see that it talks about the Messiah or 'nation' bearing the sins of the Gentiles. Did Israel ever bear the sins of the Gentiles? Did Israel ever hate itself? It's just not grammatically correct.

Servant of Christ can you please you read the following articles:

www.danielpipes.org/comments/68312

www.danielpipes.org/comments/68042

I have read them and I have responded to them. Israel does not make sense since the person Isaiah is talking about is poured out as a SACRIFICE. Israel was not sacrificed for the sins of other nations nor was it blameless. It's grammatically incorrect (as I showed the website) and chronologically off.

Here is another Interpretation for you:

True, the translation of the end of verse 16 (KJV), "of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet" is probably wrong. The phrase "k'ari" more likely is "like a lion" -- i.e. "a band of evildoers has surrounded me, like a lion, (at) my hands and feet," and indeed, lions are mentioned elsewhere in that Psalm, but that is only one detail.

The main problems with your interpretation are 1) they take a few verses out of the context of the whole Psalm and ignore others, and 2) there is a much more likely explanation which does indeed fit the psalm as a whole.

I've already said that this applied some to Jesus and others to David. But I will be willing to listen to your explanation.

Verse 6 (KJV) in particular does not fit what you think about Jesus. "But I am a worm, ..." This is not humility. This is pathological self abasement. Do you assert that Jesus was G-d, and that G-d thinks of himself as a worm? This is so bizarre as to border on blasphemy. The middle of the psalm is equally untenable for you. The psalmist does not say something like, "I'll bring peace and salvation," as one would expect from a self sacrificing god. Rather he says, "Save me and I'll tell everyone how great You are." (Vs 21-22 (KJV).)

This is referring to David of course.

On a more mundane level, there is too much livestock for this to refer to the crucifixion. The Psalmist refers to bulls, lions, and dogs, and even unicorns (according to the KJV version). You might reply that these are intended to be metaphorical, but then you must ask -- who gets to determine which detail is metaphor and how the metaphor is interpreted? If the lions and bulls are metaphors, why are not the bones out of joint and the cleaving tongue also metaphors?

Dividing lots and bones out of joint are metaphorical? I am curious at your interpretation of this passage. I would like the mention that the early Jews believed this to be a prophecy for the Messiah and recently they've begun to believe that this is a prophecy of the Holocaust. Either way, the Jews believe that this has prophetic qualities.

Taking the Psalm as a whole, and fitting it in with what we know of David, the explanation is fairly obvious. This psalm is one of the cries of David who is in deep depression while fleeing Saul and his troops. King David was a spiritual giant, but having the Anointed of HaShem (i.e. King Saul) and half the kingdom trying to kill you can depress anyone. David resolves this depression, as he does in other psalms, by his faith in HaShem. The verses follow a consistent progression of ideas.

He could have written it while fleeing, however I wouldn't say that all of it is metaphorical. But this isn't the only verse that points to Jesus death (why do you continue to ignore the Gospels though?).

Servant of Christ there is a mistranslation in this verse: The two letter word "is", is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather,"is" is understood. For example, the words "hakelev" (the dog) and "gadol" (big), when joined into a sentence -- hakelev gadol -- means "the dog IS big," even though no Hebrew word in that sentence represents the word "is." A more accurate translation of the name of that child, then, would be "A wonderful counselor is the mighty G-d, the everlasting father ..." Like the name "Emanuel," this name describes G-d, not the person who carries the name.

However, the verse says 'he will be called ....". Once again, the Jews accepted this as a Messianic prophecy. It would be blasphemous to call a messenger of God "Everlasting Father" or what not.

Another problem is the context: Biblical names often describe G-d, and no one thinks to apply the description to the people with these names. The name Isaiah itself means "G-d is salvation," and not that the prophet himself is G-d in a human body. Were we to use the same logic that Christians use on the names in Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6, we would say that "Tuviya" (G-d is good), "Yedaya" (G-d knows), and "Ya-el" (HaShem is G-d) also are all G-d.

Well, I agree with that point. But the child that was to be born was not 'God is Mighty', 'Father is Everlasting', 'Counselor is Wonderful', etc.

He was Mad. He was probably lying or sombody could have messed up his work

Would the greatest moral model have the greatest lie? Would God actually say, "This is my Son whom I love" if Jesus was the one keeping believers from the kingdom of Heaven? Jesus did miracles, can the wicked open the eyes of the blind?

Could Jesus truly been mad? He showed no symptoms of being a madman. If Jesus was the Messiah foretold, then how could he be mad? He had extensive knowledge of Scripture and a perfect moral code. Even the Qu'ran supports that Jesus was holy.

Could somebody have messed up his work? Well, yes, to an extent. They could mess up his ministry, however they cannot mess up his Gospel. The 4 Gospels are untainted because they were written by Apostles (or their friends), Matthew-Matthew, Peter-Mark, Luke-Luke, and John-John. The Apostolic Letters are valid because they were written by the Apostles, the ones Jesus Christ chose to spread the Gospel! Paul is an Apostle and his letters are valid because James, John, and Peter sent him:

James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me [Paul] and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. (Galatians 2:9 NIV) emphasis added

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV) emphasis added

Peter even calls Paul's writing Scripture! And John is believed to have been at Patmos at his 50's while under Nero's rule.

Why can't Jesus be the Son of God?

I will expand later.

May God Bless You

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