To Maqsood: Pigs are really humans in pigskin??

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 7, 2007 at 21:24

Hello Maqsood,

>>M:What do you mean by edible?? Chinese eat snakes, scorpians, small insects R all these things are edible to you?? I saw once on internet that in thailand there is a restourant who serves the soup of dead children is it edible??? U yourself said that some people in Africa drink/eat blood. Can you do that?/ what is the boundary. If someone likes to eat human meat like your horror movies, what will you say about that.<<

Maqsood I wish we can have a more intelligent discussion than what we are having now.

Personally I think vegetarianism is preferable to being a meat eater. I realize that the animals we eat today have a much better life than any animal had in the wild. The only downside for them is that they can be slaughtered in the prime of their lives, painlessly in advanced countries and painfully in Muslim nations.

If you can eat cows, goats, fish and fowl why not insects, snakes and small insects. The soup of dead children, if your story is true, which I seriously suspect is nonsense as Thailand is mostly Buddhist, is not inedible. The soup will not kill you. But the law will probably kill you since almost all human laws prohibit killing your fellow human for food. This rule is followed by most animals too. They don't normally kill and eat their own kind for simple evolutionary reasons.

About drinking blood. If you can eat the meat of cows with some of the blood still in it, though cooked, what do you find abhorrent in drinking uncooked blood? Not very different from eating uncooked vegetables. Sushi, mostly raw fish is very popular all over the world. I could have drunk the blood of animals if I had been made to from childhood. People brought up as vegetarians from childhood have a horror of consuming meat just as you have a horror of consuming insects and animal blood. If you had been born as a Zulu you would be drinking blood now and enjoying it. Just as if you had been born an Australian aborigine you would be eating live worms and enjoying it. Grow up Maqsood.

>>P:It may be enough reason for Muslims to not eat pork. But non-Muslims need more reason than Islamic scripture to avoid pork.

M: U can find more reasons as described below.<<

Unconvincing reasons, Maqsood.

>>M: I would like to ask christians that what they say about this. I mean whether they negate this order from bible or simply they dont follow but have believe? In either case it is challenge to christians (about half of world population).<<

Will some Christian please answer Maqsood?

>>P:Also have you ever bothered to read the pamphlet that comes with any medicine you buy? If you read it would you dare to consume any of it, even the life saving anti-biotics.

M:If it is known to a Muslim, He will not use these unless there is life threat. As in that case Islam allows the haram but with the condition of no other option.<<

We all use anti-biotics and other medicines because of life-threatening or even non-life threatening (severe coughs, bronchitis…) diseases. You do not seem to have understood the question. Eating pork is even less harmful than taking antibiotics. Pneumonia, TB, cancer, HIV… In all cases there are other options. There are nature cures, homeopathy, or just our own immune system kicking in, or the innumerable faith healers. Is using anti-biotics, sulpha drugs, vaccines haram in these cases??

>>P:Maqsood pig organs are so close to human ones that they have been approved for transplant into humans. Apart from being good source of nourishment they will soon be saving human lives. What will you do if your doctor suggests such a transplant to save a dear one?

M:Yes they might be close to humans and this supports the Quran that these and apes are converted forms of humans. And answer about transplant is same as for medicine.<<

That is a great piece of information, Maqsood. The pigs I see squealing in my friend's farm are descendants of men who were once Allah's chosen people. No wonder one feels like hugging those lovable creatures. If one day my doctor tells me I need a pig's heart to survive I will have no hesitation in okaying it knowing the Koran assures me that their hearts are as good as human hearts. What a relief!! Another feather in the cap of Islamic science.

The Koran indicated 1400 years ago that pigs are just humans in pigskin so their organs are okay for transplant! Probably this is also another good reason for not eating pork, it would be like cannibalism!!! This is even better that the advanced embryology in the Koran.

>>M: Yes you r right but pork has very little muscle building material and maximum fats. I think you will definitely agree that fats are not good for health. So y you cant eliminate the biggest source? for hypertension.<<

Similarly sugar has zero muscle building material and 100 per cent fat building carbohydrates. Why has the Koran not banned consumption of sugar? Fat is an essential ingredient in human health. There is no harm in consuming pork as long as it is balanced with other foods. Fat is the biggest source of hypertension? You need to check your sources more closely.

The Reference is http://www.ajmc.com/Article.cfm?Menu=1&ID=3046

I read the article and also its conclusion. There is nothing about pig fat or even any animal fat in general for that matter. It talks of obesity and there are pure vegetarians who are obese.

Ask your freshly graduated niece or nephew about the importance of fat for our health. Without fat you will be dead very quickly. What is bad is excess fat.

>>i am quoting few lines

The Latest NHANES Data

The most recent NHANES data (2001-2002) presented at the 2005 American Society of Hypertension scientific meeting indicate that hypertension is a worsening public health problem.¹¹ One of every 3 Americans has hypertension,¹¹ a 4.7% increase from previously reported data.<<

What is your claim? The increase in hypertension cases is due to consumption of pig fat? Where does it say that?

>>As with earlier reports, these data continue to indicate that age, weight, and ethnicity are strong predictors of hypertension. Almost 50% of people with hypertension in the United States are =65 years of age, and 7 of 10 elderly Americans have hypertension. Approximately 80% of people with hypertension in the United States are overweight or obese (BMI =25 kg/m²). The highest prevalence occurs among blacks: a 46% prevalence rate compared with 29% among Hispanics, 32% in whites, and 33% in other ethnic groups.¹¹ The impact of the higher rate of hypertension in these ethnic groups is complicated by the finding that Hispanics and blacks had lower levels of education and annual income and greater difficulty accessing healthcare compared with whites and other ethnic groups.

And also note that this 2001-2002 data. Till now it would be definitely near 50 % inspite of all measures.<<

Maqsood don't use statistics to bamboozle us. Let us take a quick look at your statistics. "Almost 50 % of people with hypertension in the United States are =65 years of age, and 7 out of 10 elderly Americans have hypertension.

Where does it indicate among all those numbers that pig fat is the cause of hypertension. Why don't you Google hypertension to get a better picture instead of trying to drown your readers in numbers.

Except in Islamic countries the Internet is a resource which everyone can access and your attempts to throw out meaningless statistics will not fool anyone. All those numbers have no relevance to pork. Just because it has more fat than some other animals does not mean that it is poison.

>>Data of Muslim countries you can find from net. Their rate might be high but not due to overweight as is the case in America, but due to miserable condition of Muslims all over the world. Do you know how many innocent Muslims are killed daily?<<

Can you point me to some links with such data for Muslim countries? I am unable to get any. Yes Maqsood, how many Muslims are killed daily? Read the Arab press. How many are killed in Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan. Muslims killed by Muslims. Or is it that what matters is only Muslims killed by kafirs. Try and do some research and you will be surprised Maqsood.

>>M:Bird flu is a disease of poultry but pork itself is a disease.<<

Oh good. Now I can safely handle and eat chicken without fear of contracting and dying of bird flu.

>>M: I told you one reason that why it is forbidden in Islam. At least you will agree that it is the most filthiest animal on earth. <<

I don't consider it the ‘filthiest'. Why do you consider it the filthiest animal on earth? Eating its own or other animals' excreta? You don't seem to have read my previous post properly. I gave you the example of chicken (dogs eat human excreta too if not properly trained). Quite a few of the plant food you eat, especially the organically grown ones, have feasted on all kinds of animal and bird excreta and they are supposed to be the best for your health. Filth exists only in our minds.

>>There are other reasons too as mentioned above and below. There will be certainly other reasons too those might be unknown to humanity yet due to limited wisdom. I think you should agree on limited wisdom because you can check from history the end of different theories those were consedered right during their time. If you want example i can give to you.<<

If it is science you are referring to then you should know that science is not bothered about being wrong. It is just a search for truth and does not hesitate to go down blind alleys in its search. Scientific theories are falsifiable, that is not a weakness but its strength. Unlike religion which is faith based and un-falsifiable. Even if religious truths are falsified the faithful will refuse to accept the proof. An example would be the Koran saying the sun sets in a muddy pool. Some of the more over the top faithful believe it will be proved true some day. Others try to explain it away by sophistry. The Koranic theory of sperm arising near the backbone has been proven to be false but you as a faithful Muslim will still believe the Koran is right.

>>P:Wonderful Islamic science! If you eat pigs you behave like pigs! If you eat chicken you behave like chicken. If you eat beef you behave like cows! I think we should develop a taste for lions and tigers and eagles to become brave and strong like them.

M: Tell me about this. Is it true or false.If it proves to be true (as it is), you should not give these comments.

The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs.<<

You have been going on about pigs inviting its friends to have sex with its mate. Do pigs have friends and how do they go about inviting them. Where did you get this information from? And frankly I do not know whether what you say is true or false. I am unwilling to believe it unless you can show me proof that pigs have friends and use sign language to invite them to mount their mates. Even if they did, your theory about humans behaving like the animals they eat is hilarious to say the least.

>>P:Why don't you mention that chicken and cows also mate with their mothers, fathers and children? After eating them do we all develop incestuous feelings.

M: There is no concept of mothers, fathers, daughters etc once they r young. But it is clear that no one spares its mate for friends as pigs do. Animal may fight over its mate. The point is its most shameless and do have effects as ur practical shows.<<

Your unilateral statement is insufficient. Give us evidence that pigs do what you say and that eating it makes one behave like one.

>>P: I do enjoy a drink once in a while. I know plenty of unbelievers who never touch alcohol. And I know plenty of believers who drown themselves in alcohol. Go to Bahrain and UAE and you will see Saudis and other Arabs enjoying themselves at the bars. Smoking, drugs also cause havoc why has the Koran not foreseen them?

M: Plato ! thats what i can expect from you. Wat do you think, you do the right thing?? If some believer drinks it does not mean it is lawful in Islam. Islam prohibits every kind of alcohol and other things as you mentioned, especially those that causes unconciousness and forgets one the Allah Almighty.<<

I do not consider taking a glass or two of wine is a big sin or crime. Why does Allah need to be remembered. Is He afraid that His greatness will be lessened if humans do not remember him.

>>P: Not just alcohol, but mind altering drugs like lsd, marijuana, heroin also do the same. You can of course claim they are also intoxicants, but you seem to be bothered more about alcohol.

M: Agreed ! they are all prohibited. The reason for mentioning alcohol is that it is the most drunk item. So what now?? What do you say about all these? Should one drink or use these?<<

Does any religion really approve of drinking? So what is the point of all this?

>>P:You have not quoted any source for claiming that most rapes were alcohol related or for your claim that 8% of Americans commit incest. Do you have any such statistic for incest in Islamic countries. I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are greater in them with women restricted to their homes and males only in contact with close female relatives

M: See the references below:

1. Recently, the literature about child sexual abuse and incest has proliferated, but incest remains poorly documented because of its severe social stigma. One study of college students that defined incest as "a sexual experience with a family member" found a 28 percent prevalence, with 50 percent of the contact between siblings and 30 percent of the sibling contacts involving force. Another study of randomly selected women found that 16 percent had experienced exploitative incest before the age of 18. Blah. Blah……anxiety disorders, alcohol abuse and depression. (American Journal of Psychiatry, January 1992, vol. 149, p. 52.)<<

Maqsood, all your statistics don't mean anything unless you can quote similar studies for Islamic countries. Otherwise how does one know that this is unique to non-Islamic pig-eating, alcohol consuming countries.

>>….D. Corwin (1990) cites that in London many believed that sexual 'congress' with a child would cure venereal disease. Of capital rape prosecutions between 1730 and 1729, 25% of the cases involved victims younger than 10 years old.

62% of females are sexually abused by age 18. Finkelhor, David and J. Dziuba-Leatherman. "Victimization of Children." American Psychologist Vol. 49:3 (1992): 173-183. 1896 in The Aetiology of Hysteria, Freud discusses his "Seduction Theory" acknowledging the sexual abuse and incest of children.<<

This is really interesting Maqsood. Can a child of 10 or less willingly agree to be married to a 50 year old man? If it was your daughter would you agree to such a mismatch? Would not the Prophet's marriage to Ayesha at age six and consummation at age 9 fall under sexual abuse. Also what about Mohmmed having sex with Safiya at age 17. Was it sexual abuse (re 62% of females are sexually abused by age 18)

Your report states that it was a capital offence to rape victims younger than 10 years. Do you really think Ayesha consented to sex when she was nine years old?

>>…More than 60 million adult survivors of incest and sexual child abuse live in America. *Note these are only reported cases. It is believed as great as 50% of sexual child abuse is unreported. Forward, 1993<<

Why are there no studies on incest and child abuse in Muslim countries. Your statistics are meaningless for this discussion without the availability of such studies. Are the Islamic countries ashamed of what such a study will reveal?

>>99% of sexual abuse survivors know their perpetrators-80% are abused by family members, 19% are abuse by other trusted adults. CCPA, 1992

Of 50 male sexual abuse survivors, many were as young as 8 years old. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1991.

96% of female rape survivors were younger than 12 years old and knew their attackers. U.S. Department of Justice, 1992.

A study of 10,000 female children under age 18 raped in 1992, reports that 3,800 girls were under 12 years old. U.S. Justice Department, study conducted in 11 states and the District of Columbia, June 1994.

Of teenage, unwed mothers, 60-67% were incest survivors. Los Angeles Times survey, 1993<<

As I have said before when quoting such figures also quote figures for Islamic countries. There is no point in discussing these figures when discussing Islam if such statistics are not available or more correctly if such statistics are not allowed to be revealed by Muslim countries.

>>96% of teenage prostitutes were sexually molested in childhood. CCPA, 1992. Almost 80% had become prostitutes before age 18. Ibid. *60% of prostitutes were 16 or under; many were younger than 13. Ibid…..

….In the U.S. in 2000 over 3 million child abuse and neglect reports were filed and one million were confirmed. There are 3,000 children abused each day and four of them will die. Forty % of these children were under the age of six…….Types of maltreatment included:1

Neglect (including medical neglect) 61%
Physical Abuse 19%
Sexual Abuse 10% (90,600 children)
Psychological Maltreatment 5%
Medical Maltreatment 2%
Other* 17%

Maqsood as I wrote before what do these statistics mean unless you can compare them with similar studies in Muslim countries. Why do they not exist. If they exist why do you not quote them. Are you ashamed of what they will reveal?

>>P:Alcohol is not a disease, alcoholism is a disease. The roulette table is not a disease, the compulsion to gamble is a disease.

M: Agreed ! So Plato! should you leave alcohlism???<<

Admitting to taking a few drinks once in a while has made me into an alcoholic. Having sex once in a while makes me a sex maniac?

>>P:Alcohol is the snare of Satan? Who created alcohol, Allah or Satan? Did Allah create it so that Satan could use it to snare man? In the first case Satan is also capable of creating things like Allah. In the second case Allah is culpable.

M: Why are you focusing only on Satan??<<

Who is focusing on Satan? You brought up Satan and I gave you passages from the Koran clearly showing Allah and Satan in cahoots to misguide human beings to make them fuel for hell fire.

>>Tell me what is your view now about Alcoholism? Dont just discuss for discussion.... About Satan and Allah i told you in my earlier reply. yo can learn these once your basics about islam get cleared<<

What do you think is my view on lung cancer? If you smoke too much you are likely to get the disease. If you drink too much you will become an alcoholic. Ideally stop smoking and drinking.

Maqsood tell me if I am wrong about the basics of Islam: 1) Repeat the shahada. 2) Pray to an unseen being five times a day in a language you do not know facing in a direction where a piece of black stone is located. 3) Go to Mecca and indulge in a pagan ritual reminiscent of idol worship by circumambulating a stone. 4) Slaughter an animal to commemorate a near human sacrifice to appease a deity who needs to see blood flow from the slit jugulars of millions of animals every year to be assured that he has the allegiance of his creatures. These are about the most of basics of Islam. How will these basics of Islam make me a good person?

>>M: Read my statement again it is said more hygienic. It does not mean that no more safety is required. Secondly 1st slaughter an animal then see how much blood drains. We see quite often and rarely can find a drop in the remaining meat.<<

What you say only shows that you are either a vegetarian or have never seen raw meat. LOL.

>>P: In Africa some tribes (Zulus?)consume blood directly from animals without even cooking and they seem to be very healthy.

M: What do you say?? If it is a wise thing??? If you r convinced enough then why dont you do that???<<

Why isn't it wise? If they are healthy what is wrong with it? A pure vegetarian could also ask you the same question considering that vegetable matter harbour far fewer disease-causing organisms than animals. Let me ask you is it wise to eat meat??? Just as you are convinced enough to eat meat with all the disease causing organisms they contain I would also consider drinking blood of animals if I am convinced that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

>>M: Here is your required reference....., i think you should now surrender to Allah. All other signs will also become clear to you.<<

Because one experiment (who has confirmed it?) says cutting the throat of an animal causes less pain than stunning it you want me to convert to Islam. So what happens tomorrow if another study shows the reverse? You yourself indicated elsewhere that scientific theories keep changing. I convert back to being an atheist and become halal for Muslims as an apostate?

http://www.halalscience.org/en/knowledge_detail.php?Id=88

I don't want to pre-judge the site. But being familiar with Islamic science and its propagandists like Maurice Bucaille I will take whatever is cited with a ton of salt.

In fact following the links, except for writing that some studies were done and stating results without any direct quotations from the study it is claimed that slitting throat is less painful and hygienic than stunning. A curious statement drew my attention:

II - Western method by C.B.P. Stunning

1. The animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning.

2. EEG showed severe pain immediately after stunning.

Can EEG show whether an animal is suffering pain while unconscious. I have no clue. Can an expert who reads this enlighten us.

To me it seems like a typical claim by Muslims. Like Neil Armstrong hearing the adhan while in space. Confidently throwing out names of German researchers and the Texas University without properly quoting from the research papers is insufficient to convince a discerning reader. Let us check from the original research.

>>how many references you need?? I will provide you each one with the hope that you will be convinced....<<

Maqsood, cutting and pasting from Islamic websites the words of the author is insufficient, unless the quotation enables the reader to check from the original research. You have not provided a reference, just a second hand account of what the author thinks the research found.

Following some of the links I came across the statement:

‘Thus, leaving aside the debate of stunned/non-stunned meat, the fact remains that it is highly improper for a Muslim to eat out outlets where alcohol is served and consumed within close proximity. By doing so, the natural dislike and abhorrence a Muslim ought to have for alcohol will gradually fade. This is undoubtedly harmful for one's Imaan and the consequences can be far reaching. [http://www.gmwa.org.uk/foodguide2/index.php?page=viewquestion&id=75]'

This reminds one of the old Hindu concept of pollution. The saving grace is that here it is due to alcohol and for Hindus it was due to lower caste people. But the principle is the same. Something is abhorrent and so to even be in its presence is likely to harm one spiritually.

Regards

Plato

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