To Maqsood: Nature does not care what you eat, only Allah does.

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 15, 2007 at 09:35

Hello Maqsood,

Here is some more stuff about pigs.

>>P:Maqsood I wish we can have a more intelligent discussion than what we are having now.

M:Same I do. How interesting this is…. U don't like to discuss what you like to eat…..<<

I am not saying that we should not discuss the subject of eating but that it should be a more intelligent discussion. You have copied and pasted material which show the bad effects of body fat, which is universally known. The figures in the article are not co-related to consumption of pork.

>>P: Personally I think vegetarianism is preferable to being a meat eater. I realize that the animals we eat today have a much better life than any animal had in the wild. The only downside for them is that they can be slaughtered in the prime of their lives, painlessly in advanced countries and painfully in Muslim nations.

M: What? inspite of the study report i provided to you. I did not write that. It was from German University. At least you should confirm it from the source before having said this. Can you provide me report in favor of your ideas about pain. I am really sorry that you are not sincere to the topic.<<

Read the article below which I found in Wikislam. It is also from a Western source:

During halal/kosher slaughter first the skin and the superficial neck musculature are cut through, then the more deeply lying bronchial tube and the esophagus. Thereby those next to it lying Nervi phrenici become simultaneous cut, which supply the diaphragma motor. Each medical student learned and each physician with surgical or anaesthical experience knows that the bronchial tube, the larynx and the esophagus are particularly pain-sensitive organs, whose injury still into deep anestisia cause substantial pain reactions with respiratory embarrassments, pulse frequency and blood pressure increase as well as electrocardiogram changes and that when hurting the carotid artery the well-known carotid-sine-effect shows the special sensitivity of this neck region. During the slow deblooding the split ends ofthen clog/thrombosidize and it must be re-cut. Because of the hurt diaphragma nerves it comes to a paralysis of the diaphragme musculature and to a immobilen Zwerchfellhochstand, i.e. to a stuck slackening of the diaphragma, which is pushed by abdominal organs towards the head when hanging up. This results in a further substantial impairment of the respiration, which is based predominantly on the movement of this muscle chord plate.

To the intolerable cut pain the animal gets thus still fear of death by difficulty in breathing. Due to this, fear and pain-caused intensified breathing procedure and difficulty in breathing the blood and the contents from the stomach from the split esophagus are inspired (sucked) into the lungs, which leads additionally to heavy asphyxiation accumulations. And all this - contrary to the statements of the halal/kosher proponents - with full consciousness of the animal! Because the blood supply of the brain is still given.

Photographs show the full reactivity and conscious orientation of the animal, which rises after being cut with the terrible neck wound and orients himself towards the exit of the area. The upper veterinarian advice and director of slaughterhouse Dr. Klein recorded this proof over the still existing consciousness of the animal in strip mosaics. Equivalent statements are in the book "animal protection and culture" from M. Kyber with preface of the president of the German animal defense association Dr. A. Grasmüller. The blood supply of the animal brain takes place via three main artery pairs. Two carotid arteries, two arteries within the neck bones and two further in the neck musculature. These six main arteries anastomosieren (are connected) within the upper neck range, since further arteries connections are present to the head basis in the front head area over the Arteria maxillaris.

In addition vascular anastomoses (vasular connections) exist over the solid neck musculature to the head inside. This cross-linking of the vessels ensure also on disconnection of the carotid arteries a still sufficient blood supply of the brain. According to the well-known physiological procedure the body reduces its peripheral blood circulation in favor of of brain, heart and kidneys up to zero with the deblooding. Since the animal is hung up in addition at the hind legs, the orthostatische liquid pressure in the vascular system supplies additionally the brain with blood and holds the animal with consciousness, until practically with striking heart all blood contents of the vascular system ran out in this way. This procedure takes several minutes after general experience, whereby data exist up to 14 minutes. The different numerical data are to be due to the different criteria, whether one takes the reactions of the body as yardstick, the Cornealreflex, the circulation system or stopping bleeding from the container ends or the heart impact." ^[6]

The article is a rebuttal of Zakir Naik's claim of little pain during halal slaughter.German article, translated by Google http://www.tierisch.ch/Berichte/Schaechten/

>>M: Amazing.... Thanks to Allah i m not there. What could you do if you were born in the home of a Muslim. Had you any control over your birth??? Matter is of lawful and not lawful, good or harmful for health. Not for cooked or uncooked. Can you see from where all the lethal diseases are coming? there would be rarely diseases origin from the region where only halal things are eaten.<<

And thanks to Allah millions of people live in countries which are not Muslim. Who should you blame for people born in un-Islamic countries? Why don't you do a little research and see the prevalence of diseases in Muslim countries as opposed to diseases in advanced Western pork-eating, alcohol consuming nations.

>>P: Unconvincing reasons, Maqsood.

M: I believe you will be convinced finally.<<

I keep an open mind.

>>M: How can you say that eating pork is less harmfull than taking antibiotics. Do you have any scientific reason for this????.<<

Where is the need to quote scientific reasons. The warning that comes with antibiotics does not put off anyone from consuming it. It does not kill them if taken for the proper reasons. So too pork, if consumed in normal quantities will keep you fit and healthy and will not make you sick. I have yet to hear of any doctor, except Muslim ones, who discourage consumption of pork for health reasons

>>And also it seems that you are convinced that pork is harmful for health.<<

Any food is harmful for health if it is from unhygienic sources or if consumed in extra large quantities.

>>P…..The Koran indicated 1400 years ago that pigs are just humans in pigskin so their organs are okay for transplant! Probably this is also another good reason for not eating pork, it would be like cannibalism!!! This is even better that the advanced embryology in the Koran.

>>M: Its not a joke. Quran is for all ages after its appearance. yo will find many indications indicated 1400 years before you can take advantage today and onward.<<

It is not a joke? You mean the Koran is serious when it says some humans were converted to apes and pigs? Now I have heard everything! I am sure it is also not a joke when the Koran says stars are missiles to drive away the devil. It is also not a joke when we hear the Koran talk of a conversation between Sulaiman and a bird and ants. You fail to realize that Allah has a very good sense of humour. Allah must be roaring with laughter when He sees billions of people believe He is the most beneficent and most merciful creator despite the fact that he regularly kills and maims thousands of people in earthquakes, floods and diseases.

As someone who has studied the Koran have you found anything in it not known until today that you took advantage of?

>>M: yo did not read that report properly, otherwise you should not say that. See the highlighted line…. 80% of people with hypertension in the United States are overweight<<

Maqsood, I did read the report properly. Nowhere does it say that people are overweight because of eating pork. Now read the article and table I have provided.

>>Can you provide me the biggest source of these extra fats?<<

Yes, I can. People eat more beef and chicken than pork AND beef contains about the same quantity of fat ounce for ounce.

Outlook Report No. (LDPM13001) 18 pp, May 2005

Pork ranks third in annual U.S. meat consumption, behind beef and chicken, averaging 51 pounds per person. The Continuing Survey of Food Intakes by Individuals (CSFII) indicates that most pork is consumed at home. Pork consumption is highest in the Midwest, followed by the South, the Northeast, and the West. Rural consumers eat more pork than urban/suburban consumers. Pork consumption varies by race and ethnicity. Higher income consumers tend to consume less pork. Everything else remaining constant, demographic data in the CSFII suggests future declines in per capita pork consumption as the share of Hispanics and the elderly in the population rises because those two groups eat less pork than the national average. However, total U.S. pork consumption will grow because of an expansion of the U.S. population.

Nutrition Chart - Pork versus Other Meats
Based on a 3-ounce boneless serving - Cooked without
adding fat, salt or other ingredients.

Type of Meat

Calories

Total
Fat

Saturated
Fat

Protein

Cholesterol

Cooking Method

Sirloin Chop
(fat trimmed)

164

5.7 g

1.9 g

25 g

78 mg

Broiled

Center Cut Chop
(fat trimmed)

173

6.6 g

2.3 g

26 g

68 mg

Broiled

Rib Chop
(fat trimmed)

186

8.3 g

2.9 g

24 g

80 mg

Broiled

Tenderloin

139

4.1 g

1.4 g

26 g

67 mg

Roasted

Center Loin
Roast

160

6.4 g

2.1 g

25 g

66 mg

Roasted

Sirloin Roast

168

7 g

2.5 g

25 g

73 mg

Roasted

Rib Roast

182

8.6 g

3 g

24 g

70 mg

Roasted

Blade Boston
Roast

191

9.2 g

3.3 g

25 g

75 mg

Roasted

Cured Ham-Lean
(5% fat)

107

4.6 g

1.5 g

15 g

45 mg

Roasted

Chicken Breast
(with skin)

170

7 g

2 g

25 g

70 mg

Roasted

Chicken Breast
(skinless)

120

1.5 g

.5 g

24 g

70 mg

Roasted

Chicken Thigh
(skinless)

152

7 g

2 g

21 g

81 mg

Roasted

Chicken Drumstick
(skinless)

130

4 g

1 g

23 g

70 mg

Roasted

Beef Tenderloin
(fat trimmed)

180

8.5 g

3.2 g

24 g

70 mg

Broiled

Beef Sirloin
(fat trimmed)

170

6.1 g

2.4 g

26 g

75 mg

Broiled

Lamb Chop
(fat trimmed)

180

8 g

3 g

25 g

80 mg

Broiled

http://www.hormel.com/templates/knowledge/knowledge.asp?catitemid=31&id=160

Maqsood, study the report and the table and tell us where you stand now with regard to pork as a major cause for diseases in the West as opposed to your healthy Islamic countries which shun pork.

Even lamb and chicken can give you more diseases compared to pork and pork is only third in quantum of meats consumed.

Beef sirloin – 6.1 g. Pork sirloin – 5.7 g. Beef tenderloin 8.5g. Pork tenderloin – 4.1g. Lamb chop – 8g. Pork chop – 6.6g.

Did the Koran get it right when it banned consumption of pork fearing hypertension among people?

Stop eating lamb, beef and chicken, Maqsood. Vegetarianism is the way to go.

>>P:What is your claim? The increase in hypertension cases is due to consumption of pig fat? Where does it say that?

M: What are the other major sources for fats those are causing such a huge weight in Americans??? As 80% of people with hypertension in the United States are overweight.<<

Read the previous reply.The major source of fat is beef, not pork.

>>As with earlier reports, these data continue to indicate that age, weight, and ethnicity are strong predictors of hypertension. Almost 50% of people with hypertension in the United States are =65 years of age, and 7 of 10 elderly Americans have hypertension. Approximately 80% of people with hypertension in the United States are overweight or obese (BMI =25 kg/m²). The highest prevalence occurs among blacks: a 46% prevalence rate compared with 29% among Hispanics, 32% in whites, and 33% in other ethnic groups.¹¹ The impact of the higher rate of hypertension in these ethnic groups is complicated by the finding that Hispanics and blacks had lower levels of education and annual income and greater difficulty accessing healthcare compared with whites and other ethnic groups.

And also note that this 2001-2002 data. Till now it would be definitely near 50 % inspite of all measures.<<

>>…Where does it indicate among all those numbers that pig fat is the cause of hypertension. Why don't you Google hypertension to get a better picture instead of trying to drown your readers in numbers.

M: Y don't you read ahead….. 80% of people with hypertension in the United States are overweight.

Can you tell me the reason???<<

Yes the reason is they eat beef! Read my reply earlier giving fat content of various meats. You ask why 80% of people in the US are overweight. The article states that much more beef than pork is consumed and beef contains as much if not more fat than pork. So the major cause for people being overweight is the consumption of beef NOT pork!

>>P:Except in Islamic countries the Internet is a resource which everyone can access and your attempts to throw out meaningless statistics will not fool anyone. All those numbers have no relevance to pork. Just because it has more fat than some other animals does not mean that it is poison.

M: this is not relative to the topic. But still find my answer

If there is no internet in Islamic countries then how can I provide you all the facts and figures….<<

Anything remotely critical of Islam is promptly banned by a good number of Islamic countries (showing they do not have much faith in the truth of Islam, despite the Koran saying ‘truth stands out clear from error').

I don't know which Islamic country you are in but since you seem unable to give any figures for arguments against the banning of pork or alcohol or for sex crimes in Muslim countries it argues for your not being able to access them. Otherwise just googling a few key words would have easily brought up these figures and articles I have quoted and spared you needless embarrassment.

>>M: It makes no sense… Yes The same I want that the west should leave their bad practices and now should start to evaluate the bad results of what they have been doing since last few decades. They must learn from the horrifying results.<<

Maqsood, you have to prove to the West that what they eat is bad or alcohol is the reason for sex crimes. I have proven to you that pork no worse for your health than beef. That sex crimes are as rampant in Muslim countries as in the West, only Muslim countries try to sweep it under the carpet instead of trying to deal with it honestly.

P:Can you point me to some links with such data for Muslim countries? I am unable to get any. Yes Maqsood, how many Muslims are killed daily? Read the Arab press. How many are killed in Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan. Muslims killed by Muslims. Or is it that what matters is only Muslims killed by kafirs. Try and do some research and you will be surprised Maqsood.

>>M:Plato! Tell me if this is correct data or not. why do you need a comparison?? If these figures are not enough to worry about. Will you be satisfied if hypertension in Muslim countries is also high?? Think of yourself. I will also try to find out any data from Muslim Countries.<<

I have no reservation about accepting that the data you have quoted is correct. Do you similarly accept the content of the articles and data I have quoted? I await your answer, Maqsood.

>>M: None of Quran's saying is proved to be false. As I suggested in my previous message, we can start a separate discussion point by point about these.<<

None?? The Koran is proved false again and again day in and day out. The Koran says Allah is the MOST beneficent, MOST merciful. The painful deaths of men, women and children occurring daily, the Allah-induced earthquakes, floods, the mass starvations in many parts of the world, including countries where He is worshipped (Somalia, Darfur, Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan) gives the lie to the claim that Allah is in any way beneficent or merciful.

>>M:Although it is illogical to believe a science that can be proved to be wrong at the last day of your life.<<

Maqsood you seem to think that science is some kind of belief system like Islam. It is not. Science is not bothered whether Allah exists or not. It does not care either way. Science is not also trying to search for meaning in life. It does not care whether there is meaning or not.

Science is just trying to understand the workings of nature including its greatest achievement, our minds. So I am not a believer in science I just accept its findings about nature in the full knowledge that some of those findings could be modified or even change over time. Like all living things fear death, I do too, for without the fear of death our species and all other species will quickly die out. And when I am dead the atoms that make up my physical being will once again merge into where it came from and the soul that lighted up the inanimate matter and made me what I was will flicker out like a candle never to be lighted again, either here or anywhere else.

>>What can you do about the time you had considered it right? you want to believe an unreliable thing?? I cant understand why?? <<

You ask about science: you want to believe an unreliable thing?? What about Allah. How reliable is He? Read this verse: 14:27 SHAKIR: Allah confirms those who believe with the sure word in this world's life and in the hereafter, and Allah causes the unjust to go astray, and Allah does what He pleases. There are other verses also where salvation is not guaranteed by good behaviour or intentions. Allah will do as He pleases.

But there is one instance where Allah guarantees paradise to believers, when they kill or are killed in His cause.

9:111 SHAKIR: Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.

Below are some verses where the reliable Allah stands exposed. He purposely misguides people though He claims that if He pleases He can guide them to the right path. What, dear Maqsood, is the guarantee that tomorrow He will not mislead you. Perhaps even at this moment you have been misguided by Allah about some things. Can anyone except blind believers place trust in Allah's reliability after reading such ayas?

16:9 SHAKIR: And upon Allah it rests to show the right way, and there are some deviating (ways); and if He please He would certainly guide you all aright.

27:4-5 SHAKIR: As to those who do not believe in the hereafter, We have surely made their deeds fair-seeming to them, but they blindly wander on. These are they who shall have an evil punishment, and in the hereafter they shall be the greatest losers.

35:8 SHAKIR: What! is he whose evil deed is made fairseeming to him so much so that he considers it good? Now surely Allah makes err whom He pleases and guides aright whom He pleases, so let not your soul waste away in grief for them; surely Allah is Cognizant of what they do

>>By nature every thoughtful human tries to live with the reliable things…. Think again Plato… you don't seem to be such a surface person.<<

As you say we humans have the capacity to think. Considering what Allah says in his revelation, the Koran, about His nature why would I want to become his slave. He wants me go to and kill or be killed. I consider that an obnoxious commandment unfit for someone who claims to be the Most Merciful.

He says in 14:27 ‘Allah causes the unjust to go astray, and Allah does what He pleases.' If He is going to do what He pleases how reliable is he in his promises. He also keeps saying He sends astray anyone He pleases. So how can I rely on Him not to send me astray?

Maqsood I invite you to search for the contexts of the verses I have quoted and show me they do not mean what they say.

As a ‘thoughtful' human after reading Allah's statements about Himself how can I possibly place reliance on Him?

Plato

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