To Maqsood:Some very interesting statistics from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 14, 2007 at 10:11

Hello Maqsood, here is my response to your post on alcoholosim:

>>M: Leave Allah aside. U are saying a glass or two is not a big sin?? But it is sin. So how will you decide that it is big or small. Logically you should see its after effects. <<

Maqsood, you cannot leave Allah aside. He claims to know everything, including the past and the future. You should ask yourself why Allah allowed situations which allow incest in such large numbers. It raises questions about his ability to create good human beings. Either that or he is not bothered about his creation.

Allah has made alcohol a ‘big sin'. But Allah did not make slavery a big sin. He did not make wife-beating a big sin. Is not keeping and dealing in slaves and beating your spouse bigger sins than having a few drinks?

>>Now think that the data given below like sexual experience with a family member" found a 28 percent prevalence, with 50 percent of the contact between siblings and 30 percent of the sibling contacts involving force. Would it be possible without alcohol or alcoholism.<<

Where does this data link up alcohol with incest. You have linked it for no particular reason. Asking whether incest in such large numbers would be possible without alcohol is a rhetorical question. The answer is not obvious. I can quote a lot of statistics for Muslims committing violence against other Muslims in Pakistan and can then ask whether it is not due to the violence taught in madrassas. Would I be right in assuming that it is madrassa education without statistics linking the two? As you keep telling me, think.

Islam accepts and reveres the prophets of the Bible, including Ibrahim and Loot. Abraham committed incest with his half-sister. Abraham's nephew, Loot's daughters induced him to commit incest with them. Nowhere does Allah condemn them for this. How could He, since the human race according to your religion is descended from Adam and Eve, which necessarily means that we are all the result of incestuous relationships. It is disbelievers like us who reject such stories and condemn incest unreservedly and without equivocation.

>>Now you and anybody who considers a glass or two, lawful or small sin, how will guarantee that he will never go beyond this limit. Who will stop you especially when you re upset by your girl friend or any business reason. you cant stop yourself or at least everybody cant do that…., So as a result one more person will go toward alcoholism and only then he can commit such inhuman acts.<<

Researchers Identify Alcoholism Gene

Alcohol Addiction, High Anxiety Linked to Same Gene

By Jeanie Lerche Davis
WebMD Medical News

May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.

The finding also provides evidence that an inborn high level of anxiety is part of this picture. The study appears in this week's issue of the Journal of Neuroscience. (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene)

…. Genes clearly do contribute to alcoholism. However, even when a gene like GABRG3 is found, that does not mean we understand the genetic basis of alcoholism. The researchers do not yet know how changes in the GABA gene increase a person's risk of alcoholism. (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119)

Maqsood study these two articles. Allah cannot escape responsibility for alcoholism in humans. Despite the caveat in the second article, slowly but surely science is narrowing in on Allah as the cause for alcoholism!!

>>M: truly no religion…. But then why most of you people consider it lawful to drink (one glass or 100 glass). you will say you don't have any religion…., that's why I m putting all this information in front of you, so that you analyze and see what are you getting from this alcohol or alcoholism.<<

Maqsood you first have to confront the fact that Allah has put genes in some of us that can cause alcoholism. Start your analysis from that simple fact.

>>M: Ok leave the muslim world ( this don't mean that I agree about figs in Islamic countries, I will provide those to u soon). Let them go their way.. But are not you scared of these figs in your countries. I believe you will not have any doubt now in these figs.. So what are the reasons to such inhumane things? This is so called civilized world. How a person having some little sense can do all this. Think honestly….analyze … and find the truth…. I believe u will know all realities of faith, civilization and Islam.<<

I absolutely do not doubt those figures you have quoted. They seem to be from impeccable sources. I am scared of those figures. And as you keep telling me, think honestly. Who created you, me and all else. Allah. Did He know what kind of people He was creating? If He did why did He create us? Allah cannot escape responsibility for the crimes of humanity. He created us the way we are.

And your saying let Islamic countries go their way shows you have no clue to what is really happening in Muslim countries regarding such crimes. Since non-Islamic countries are honest and open enough to reveal statistics about crimes in their countries you use it in way that seems to imply that if they followed Islam they would be free of such crimes. Maqsood, as I keep telling you unless you can put figures from believable sources for similar crimes in Muslim countries you have no case for Islam improving people's morals or ethics.

And I have shown you how Allah's prophets indulged in this sin of incest.

>>M: Instead of learning some lesson by seeing your face you are misguiding the humanity by putting these blemishes over our Holy Prophet PBUH. This is a pity Plato….

You have to admit that the only blemish less being is Allah. That means even the Prophet can have blemishes. And blemishes he had in plenty. Books have been written about them.

What really is a pity is that Muslims have been indoctrinated into believing that whatever their Prophet did is blameless. When it is obvious that he did some things that were clearly cruel, unethical or immoral Allah intervenes with verses that absolve him. And Allah intervenes AFTER the Prophet had committed an unethical or immoral act.

This is no different from Bush forgiving criminals because he has the power to do so as in the case of his crony from Enron and others. (http://sentencing.typepad.com/sentencing_law_and_policy/2006/04/another_uninspi.html)

Are the Bush pardons any different from Allah condoning Mohammed's marriage to his adopted son' ex-wife by issuing a dictat allowing what Arabs considered to be incestuous. Why did Allah not issue this decree before he married Zaynab? (33:37)

Similar was the case when the Prophet was caught in bed with a slave by one of his wives and Allah absolves his covenant with them.

Allah had set Bush a very good precedent to follow, that is, if you have the power use it liberally to bail out your favourites.

>>I will show you the truth about our Prophet.<<

You have forgotten one little truth about your Prophet's marriage to Aysha. Aysha in several shahi hadiths clearly indicates her age was six and that she was playing with dolls at the time she was taken to the Prophet's house. If you doubt her testimony then you have to doubt all hadiths traced back to her. And if she was 18 when she went to the Prophet's house and was still playing with dolls then surely she was mentally deficient for that age. Again all her hadiths become unreliable.

>>His 1^st marriage was with Hazrat Khadija. At that time, Hazrat Khadija was 40 years old and had two sons and one daughter from her earlier husbands and Hazrat Muhammed PBUH was only 25 years of age. He at a young age married a woman who was married two times but both the husbands had died. Because near to him the criteria was virtue ness. And also He did not married to another woman until Hazrat Khadija lived. This loving and caring monogamous relationship continued for 25 years until her death. Muhammad, now over 50 years of age, married a relatively aged woman by the name of Saudah. It is thus important to note here that Muhammad's twenty five prime youth years were spent in purely monogamous relationship with a lady 15 years his senior. This speaks volumes about this man's piety and loyalty in spousal matters as well as about the fact that his later marriages could not have been motivated by any human wild sexual desires

Why don't you quote these examples???<<

It has been pointed out many times that the Prophet not marrying while Khadija was alive had a lot to do with the fact that Khadija being the one with the money (the Prophet was a poor employee of hers) Mohammed would have found it tough to marry another woman. But the moment he was free of Khadija he went about marrying with abandon. Also it has been pointed out that marriage to Saudah was another one of convenience as he needed a matron to take care of his children.

>>Do you have any authentic reference for your saying (Prophet's marriage to Ayesha at age six and consummation at age)???

This is totally wrong data to misguide humanity. See below the true facts;<<

You have conveniently mixed reliable and unreliable sources to arrive at varying figures for Ayesha's age but refuse to believe shahi hadiths where Ayesha herself reports in several of them her tender age at the time of her marriage. Why don't you come out openly and say that Ayesha was lying about her age?

>>…More than 60 million adult survivors of incest and sexual child abuse live in America. *Note these are only reported cases. It is believed as great as 50% of sexual child abuse is unreported. Forward, 1993<<

P:Why are there no studies on incest and child abuse in Muslim countries. Your statistics are meaningless for this discussion without the availability of such studies. Are the Islamic countries ashamed of what such a study will reveal?

M : I will ask you that your so called NGOs and UN can get involved in the human right issues in the remote tribal areas of Pakistan then why they are unable to provide such data in Pakistan???

There are hundreds of surveys carried out in Islamic countries regarding child labour, woman rights etc. Even a single incident of rape in balochistan was so popular in your media??? whysuch reports could not be generated??? For your information that lady was invited to world trip…..<<

Maqsood with the internet as a resource you have access to, I am surprised that you did not search for data on child abuse and crimes in Muslim societies. I did one and found this about Pakistan. Go through it carefully and tell me what you think of the statistics in it. Are those crimes against children due to alcohol and pork?

I have picked up a report about Saudi Arabia which says that 77% of child abusers in the country are parents. Like you link incest in the West to alcohol and pork would I be justified in attributing the horrors the Saudi's commit to what they learn in the Koran. Or is it because they eat halal meat? Can you see the connection, Maqsood?? Let me tell you. Watching or slitting the throat of an animal and leaving it to die a painful death can inure you to the pain felt by others, even humans.

"Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia: Minors Most Likely Victims of Sexual Abuse, Studies Show

December 19th, 2006 — Tina

JEDDAH, Dec 19: According to recent studies, 60 percent of all sexual assault victims are minors. Family members commit nearly one third of these incidents.

Addressing the issue of family violence at the Jeddah Chamber of Industry and Commerce on Sunday night, Inaam Robai, chairperson of the Committee for Protecting Children's Rights at the Armed Forces Hospital, said that child abuse in Saudi Arabia has become a very serious issue.

"The term ‘family violence' includes many different forms of abuse, mistreatment or neglect that adults or children may experience in their homes," said Robai. "As our understanding of the nature and extent of violence within intimate relationships and families improves, and our insight deepens, the definition of family violence continues to evolve."

She pointed out that Interior Ministry studies have shown that 45 percent of children are mistreated during their daily lives.

"Unfortunately we don't like to talk about the problem and we always ignore it here in Saudi Arabia," she said.

Robai cited a study of Makkah households estimating that 77 percent of child abusers are parents.

"Abuse may take place anywhere and may occur, for example, within the child's home or that of someone known to the child," she said.

"Many cases of child abuse remain undisclosed, either because a child does not, or cannot, tell anyone what has happened to them, or because no one reports the abuse to the authorities."(http://sadlynormal.wordpress.com/tag/world-news/saudi-arabia/)

For other interesting articles just google ‘incest Pakistan or incest Saudi arabia'

>>M: there is no need to discuss. These figures are self explaining….. Plato! Are not you horrified from these??/ Don't you consider them true??? What are their reasons, think honestly. Where you people are going??? What is next??

M: Plato, this statistics are from your own sources…Yes now you have come to the point that Why do they not exist this is only because that we have fear from Allah Almighty. If we do these type of acts, we will have to be answerable to HIM. Other wise we will be punished in this world and hereafter.

Actually as I said before Islam gives the best system to spend the life. Life is not only to do ones own wishes. If you go that way you will definitely be lost in evil things.<<

You claim: ‘Yes now you have come to the point that Why do they not exist this is only because that we have fear from Allah Almighty.'

You also make the claim that Islam gives the best ‘system to spend life'. I have given a link to an article about child abuse in Pakistan. Please go through it carefully and read about the ‘system' of life Islam has given to Pakistani children. Also tell your readers after reading it whether as you claim such crimes do not exist in Islamiccountries.(http://www.sahil.org/abt_publications_cruelnumbers.html)

Click on Cruel Numbers 2006 and read the full report from Muslim sources.

I have picked out some interesting statements from it for your information and comment.

‘Sahil has taken the initiative of producing a yearly statistical report based on child sexual abuse cases reported in the national newspapers. This data is collected with the aim to know the bitter realities.

The aim of producing this report is to equip the general public and child policy makers with the incidents of child sexual abuse (CSA) in Pakistan. It is difficult to measure the prevalence of CSA in our society. Many incidents will never be reported especially those committed by family members.'

The report is based only on cases reported in national newspapers in Pakistan. Can you imagine the actual numbers Maqsood?

‘The data in this year.s report reveals that the child sexual abuse rate in Pakistan is touching the figure of approximately 4 children a day.'

The report confirms that there is no safe place for children, because children are victimized in places from their own homes and any place outside it. Reported cases in the rural areas are significantly higher than those in the urban communities.'

‘…we believe that these numbers do not represent the total number of such incidents in

Pakistan . because such issues are taboo and not easily reported. Resultantly, any attempt to quantify the issue of child sexual abuse is bound to be limited in scope.'

‘In Pakistan, most of the people are not willing to accept the involvement of various groups in child sexual abuse. People tend to deny sexual abuse by acquaintances because it is a very difficult situation to deal with.'

Here is an interesting statement the report has: ‘Finally, culturally, there may be an acceptance of child-adult sexual relationships.'

Maqsood after reading the report can you tell your readers whether it is only the people who eat pigs and drink alcohol are responsible for child abuse.

>>M: Amazed by your good thought Plao! Applause……<<

Thank you for the applause.

>>yo mean that single murder is not serious enough. But honestly tell me that having sex once, will you have more desire for next sex or less desire??? It will definitely be more. Then who will stop u to have 2^nd sex, murder, drinks. There is no end. And this is practically proved by the facts from your society described in above reports.<<

What you are trying to say is unclear but would you kindly tell us what you think of the reports from the land of your Prophet and the land of the pure, Pakistan.

>>……Maqsood tell me if I am wrong about the basics of Islam: 1) Repeat the shahada. 2) Pray to an unseen being five times a day in a language you do not know facing in a direction where a piece of black stone is located. 3) Go to Mecca and indulge in a pagan ritual reminiscent of idol worship by circumambulating a stone. 4) Slaughter an animal to commemorate a near human sacrifice to appease a deity who needs to see blood flow from the slit jugulars of millions of animals every year to be assured that he has the allegiance of his creatures. These are about the most of basics of Islam. How will these basics of Islam make me a good person?

M: Actually these belong to faith. I can go in detail to each of these. But I want to keep this discussion to alcoholism. I want to go with you from logic to faith.<<

Maqsood, the basics of faith should, I believe, be based on logic. If not I can believe in voodoo, ghosts, in the tooth fairy…..and Allah.

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