To Maqsood: Muslim mind exposed: ..my fight is…against any other religion or practice being carried out by ANYONE, ANYWHERE!

Submitted by Plato (India), Aug 23, 2007 at 03:54

IV Muslim mind exposed when you say ..my fight is…against any other religion or practice being carried out by ANYONE, ANYWHERE!

M…Instead my fight is for the religion Islam as ordered by Allah Almighty and as practiced by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his close companions (Sahaba) against any other religion or practices being carried out by anyone, anywhere.

I have picked the above statement you have made. Have you considered it carefully? It is revealing of what is in a Muslim's mind. It tells us quite a lot about what Islam has done to Muslims. It tells us why we the unbelievers should not only be terrified of you but also probably feel sorry for you.

Muslims proclaim from the roof tops Islam is a religion of peace. You have now shown it is a false claim. You claim Islam is a religion of peace, but at the same time you say you will go out and impose it on others (..my fight is…against any other religion or practice being carried out by ANYONE, ANYWHERE!!). You cannot help but go out and fight as Allah orders you in this verse:

4:76 SHAKIR: Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

What you have said reveals:

1. You BELIEVE you have been ordered by Allah to fight for the religion of Islam, however abhorrent some of the Islamic practices are like allowing slavery, demeaning women by allowing them to be beaten by men, chopping up people's limbs for even non-violent crimes.

2. You think the example set by the shahaba is what you should follow and you should go out and put an end to the religious practices of other people wherever they may be. You, the Muslims, claim the right to end other people's religious practices but you scream and hurl abuse at the Crusaders both ancient and modern for just trying to defend the existence of their religions.( As an aside: Why are so bothered about Palestine. Just as you think that Muslims have a right to Palestine because one of your Caliphs conquered it and converted it to Islam. So too the Jews think they have a right to it because even before the Muslims they had conquered it and made it a Jewish land. Can you spell out your reasons for the Muslim claim to Palestine. )

3. You arrogate the right to fight and kill for Islam but you scream abuse at other religions for defending their faiths like the crusaders who were trying to rescue their brethren from the Muslim invaders. Do you think only Muslims have the right to fight and kill for their religion??

We unbelievers feel sorry for you Muslims at this kind of warped thinking that your Prophet has given you.

M:…If some one do against Islam ( Quran and Sunnah) he or that society has to suffer for that wrong deed, sometimes at once and sometimes after a period…

P: What about Islam ‘going and doing'against other people like the Persians and the Christians in Palestine and elsewhere, including in far away Spain. By what right, except your Allah's and your prophet's self-proclaimed claim in the Koran to ownership of the Universe which no unbeliever accepts or believes, did the Muslims go and invade all those countries???????

And what has anyone done against Islam, except mostly defend themselves from Muslim invasions.

M: As you shown a few examples from Muslim world, they might be true, but It is due to, not obeying Islam. Also see the important thing that as Most of the Muslims still follow the basics of Islam that's y these type of incidents are far less as compared to the societies where there is no Islam.

I saw the whole list from where you picked these stories.

P: Unbelievers are honest in reporting problems with their society. Islamic countries on the other hand try to hide their shame and hence make no effort to correct the crimes their societies suffer from. Is not the data I gave for two representative Muslim countries enough. How long can you be an ostrich and hide from what is happening in your pure Islamic countries. If you insist on hiding the defects inherent in your society it is condemned to being second class as compared to the West which is open and free for anyone, including from the Muslim world, to examine the underpinnings of its society.

M: For your information what I found that most of the stories like you given, are from Non Islamic Countries. I just quoted one below.

P: What makes you say such a thing Maqood. All the source for Pakistan and Saudi Arabia I have given are from people in those countries. You have called me a liar and much else. What does this statement of yours indicate? Who is the liar? (Addressing the issue of family violence at the Jeddah Chamber of Industry and Commerce on Sunday night, Inaam Robai, chairperson of the Committee for Protecting Children's Rights at the Armed Forces Hospital, http://www.sahil.org/abt_publications_cruelnumbers.html, Sahil is Pakistani organization)

P: You brought up the accusation that incest is rampant in the US. Your statistics are so disjoint that the August 6 post about pigs being forbidden has these stats:

"… According to statistics, 8% of Americans commit incest i.e. one in every twelve to thirteen persons in America is involved in incest. Almost all the cases of incest are due to intoxication of one or both the persons involved.

Then you write:

Recently, the literature about child sexual abuse and incest has proliferated, but incest remains poorly documented because of its severe social stigma. One study of college students that defined incest as "a sexual experience with a family member" found a 28 percent prevalence, with 50 percent of the contact between siblings and 30 percent of the sibling contacts involving force. Another study of randomly selected women found that 16 percent had experienced exploitative incest before the age of 18. The psychiatric sequelae of incest are not well known. To determine the long-term psychiatric effects of incest, Pribor and Dinwiddie conducted a study to determine the prevalence of psychiatric disorders in adult women with a history of incest."

You give some more numbers which all seem to contradict one another. What exactly are you trying to tell us with these numbers. You are simply ignoring the few numbers that are available for Muslim countries or unwilling to acknowledge that they are not very different from that of other countries.

Here is what I have copied from your post. You even have some statistics that are more than a 100 years old. Your arguments are totally unfocussed. Either you have no clue to what you are trying to convey or you are deliberately throwing out numbers to confuse.

62% of females are sexually abused by age 18. Finkelhor, David and J. Dziuba-Leatherman. "Victimization of Children." American Psychologist Vol. 49:3 (1992): 173-183. 1896 in The Aetiology of Hysteria, Freud discusses his "Seduction Theory" acknowledging the sexual abuse and incest of children.

31% of males are sexually abused by age 18. Ibid.

More than 60 million adult survivors of incest and sexual child abuse live in America. *Note these are only reported cases. It is believed as great as 50% of sexual child abuse is unreported. Forward, 1993

99% of sexual abuse survivors know their perpetrators-80% are abused by family members, 19% are abuse by other trusted adults. CCPA, 1992

Of 50 male sexual abuse survivors, many were as young as 8 years old. FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1991.

96% of female rape survivors were younger than 12 years old and knew their attackers. U.S. Department of Justice, 1992.

A study of 10,000 female children under age 18 raped in 1992, reports that 3,800 girls were under 12 years old. U.S. Justice Department, study conducted in 11 states and the District of Columbia, June 1994.

Of teenage, unwed mothers, 60-67% were incest survivors. Los Angeles Times survey, 1993

96% of teenage prostitutes were sexually molested in childhood. CCPA, 1992. Almost 80% had become prostitutes before age 18. Ibid. *60% of prostitutes were 16 or under; many were younger than 13. Ibid.

Over 80% of the mothers of incest survivors were also sexually abused.

57% of sexual child abuse and incest perpetrators are survivors of sexual child abuse. Goldstein-Harte Study 1973: Carter, et al.

A sexual child abuse perpetrator (a.k.a. sex offender) abuses an average of 117 children. National Institute of Mental Health, 1988.

Extensive evidence substantiates the fact that sexual child abuse has taken place for centuries.

In the U.S. in 2000 over 3 million child abuse and neglect reports were filed and one million were confirmed. There are 3,000 children abused each day and four of them will die. Forty % of these children were under the age of six. The age group with the highest abuse rate is 0-3 years. Nationally the highest form of abuse is neglect followed by physical abuse. In March of 2001 when President Bush declared April National Child Abuse Prevention Month he stated the cost of child abuse and neglect in the U.S. was $258 million dollars a day. This includes the price of intervention, the treatment of children who have been emotionally, physically or sexually abused as well as the indirect costs of the long term consequences both for the child and our society. Prevent Child Abuse America. In 2000, there were 261,000 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. [2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics.] Of these 261,000, 114,000 were victims of sexual assault, 55,000 were victims of attempted rape, and 92,000 were victims of completed rape. [2000 NCVS.]

An estimated 906,000 children were victims of abuse and neglect in 2003 (cases substantiated by child protective service agencies).1

In 2003, 48.3 percent of child victims were male; 51.7 percent of victims were female. 83.9 percent of victims were abused by a parent. 40.8% of child victims were maltreated by their mothers acting alone; another 18.8 percent were maltreated by their fathers acting alone; 16.9 percent were abused by both parents.1

Types of maltreatment included:1

Neglect (including medical neglect) 61%
Physical Abuse 19%
Sexual Abuse 10% (90,600 children)
Psychological Maltreatment 5%
Medical Maltreatment 2%
Other* 17%

1U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration on Children, Youth and Families, Child Maltreatment 2003 (Washington, DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 2005). Online summary: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/publications/cm03/index.htm/

Dare to see these.

P: I have dared to see those figures. What are those statistics telling you? Figures for different kinds of crimes all mixed up to cause confusion. What is it that can be untangled from them? The way you have presented these figures I get the idea that the US is a country that has time only for incest, sexual abuse of women, drink alcohol, eat pork and any other Islamic crime you can think of.

Then tell us Maqsood, when did the Americans ever get the time from all their sexual and un-Islamic eating activities to invent many of the conveniences that we use, computers, telephones…send men to the moon, build world class universities and scientific establishments that educate millions of people from all over the world, invade Afghanistan and Iraq, create matchless industries that are the envy of the world?

They stole all that from the Muslim countries?? Or had Allah put all the Muslim countries asleep for centuries like He did those famous sleepers in the cave?

Maqsood, you again have a problem here. You consider the West to be in the throes of decadence despite all its achievements, so if the Islamic world is in a worse condition in the scientific, economic and educational fields does that not mean that Muslim countries are more decadent (sexually, alcoholically etc) and are desperately trying to hide the fact?

Yes, there will be more of you cavorting in an even more decadent fashion in paradise as Allah has promised. You are welcome to that satisfaction. But don't be jealous of the decadence we suffer from now and try to destroy it as you have threatened in this post (..my fight is…against any other religion or practice being carried out by ANYONE, ANYWHERE!)

What is obvious is that as a Muslim you are so ashamed of your performance in the real world of knowledge, culture and industry that you are trying to throw excreta on the US and the West to make you and your co-religionists look good. The only problem is it is like throwing excreta at a spinning fan, it just comes back to splatter your own face.

M:Australia - Child sex victim to pay

A CHILD sex victim is faced with a hefty legal bill after she failed to win an extension of time in which she could sue her molester.

The woman is the latest in a string of child sex victims to have gone to the District Court seeking an extension of the limitation period in which to bring the civil action………

P: You have picked up some story from Australia which has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Stories like these can be multiplied thousand fold, a good number of them will be from Islamic countries. Please read the Australian story again and explain to me how it is relevant to what we are talking about.

What is the moral of this story. What is the connection with what we are discussing. You once said we should have a more intelligent discussion. Is this your idea of an intelligent discussion??

M: Plato! Can you quote me the total number of such victims. As 60 % also mean 3 out of total 5 incidents.

JEDDAH, Dec 19: According to recent studies, 60 percent of all sexual assault victims are minors. Family members commit nearly one third of these incidents.

She pointed out that Interior Ministry studies have shown that 45 percent of children are mistreated during their daily lives.

P: The ministry study says 45% of children. Work out the math, it is quite easy.

M: More important is how many total children are mistreated.

Here is a comment from the report: "Unfortunately we don't like to talk about the problem and we always ignore it here in Saudi Arabia," she said.

P: You keep harping about numbers which you can easily calculate from the percentages. When you calculate don't forget what the report says about people not talking about it. You also have nothing to say about the lady saying people in Saudi Arabia don't like to talk about the problem.

M: More important is how many total children are mistreated. Can u tell me total no. of incidents in Saudi Arabia.

P: My dear Maqsood I am not keeping count of crimes in Saudi Arabia. It is a very secretive place and very little bad news is either given out or collected. If in Pakistan nearly 90% of such crimes go unreported in Saudi Arabia it is probably 95%. Below is what I quoted about Saudi

…."Many cases of child abuse remain undisclosed, either because a child does not, or cannot, tell anyone what has happened to them, or because no one reports the abuse to the …

The population of Saudi Arabia is about 15 million. About 20% (3 million) would be aged below 15. So if 45 % are mistreated, according to government figures, that makes about one million children mistreated. So even if 50% were sex crimes that makes 500,000 child victims. American population is about 17 times the the Saudi population so work out the proportions always keeping in mind that the figures are grossly underreported given the kind of secretive society the Saudis have. Are the figures something you can gloat about as a Muslim?

M: As I have said earlier these people who commit such crimes are not Muslims. Islam does not accept these people.

P: Maqsood do you think that people who commit such crimes in the United States are Christians or Buddhists or….?

M: They will definitely be punished. Islam is not the cause. Actual culprit is nude media that is mainly western who is blinding the Muslims from Islam.

P: Are people who follow Islam so easily beguiled by nude pictures and scenes in the media that they commit sex crimes. Does Islam have no hold on people who believe in it? Then what is the difference between Islam and other religions?

Instead of blaming the poor morality of Muslims you blame the Western media for showing female flesh. Not very different from the Australian imam saying white women are uncovered flesh ready for rape.

Are Muslim men so without self-control that seeing a nude picture of a woman they get so sexually excited that they go and commit sex crimes? You are admitting that Islam is useless as a guide to restrain human behaviour.

You also seem to be saying that you cannot pin blame for such sex crimes on Muslims and their religion Islam as it was those nude pictures (a Jewish-Christian conspiracy to defame islam, no doubt) that should really be held responsible for the crime.

M:But if u want to see the difference in an Islamic country and a Non Muslim country See the percentage difference in the number of incidents. As u quoted in Pakistan it will be

Comparison, Child abuse cases

In 2006, Pakistan child abuse cases 4 per day, that is 1460 per year, 0.0009 % of total population (total population of Pakistan in 2006 was 130 Million). These are reported figures may 50% of actual)

P: Let us do a more honest calculation, Maqsood. 1 in 3 girls are likely to be sexually abused before the age of 18. And 1 in 6 boys in the same age group are abused. (refer to my previous post)

This means that making the reasonable assumption that girls upto 18 make up about 10 per cent of the population 4.3 million girls (13 million divided by 3) in Pakistan have been abused. Similarly the number of boys abused will be about half this number giving a total figure of about 6.5 million children sexually abused in Islamic Pakistan at present.

You have quoted figures for 1896 in the next statistic you have given.

62% of females are sexually abused by age 18. Finkelhor, David and J. Dziuba-Leatherman. "Victimization of Children." American Psychologist Vol. 49:3 (1992): 173-183. 1896 in The Aetiology of Hysteria, Freud discusses his "Seduction Theory" acknowledging the sexual abuse and incest of children.

31% of males are sexually abused by age 18. Ibid.

From the plethora of figures you have given I have picked some figures that seem significant (rather than the century old figures).

‘In the U.S. in 2000 over 3 million child abuse and neglect reports were filed and one million were confirmed.'

Your report also has this for 2003

An estimated 906,000 children were victims of abuse and neglect in 2003 (cases substantiated by child protective service agencies).

Let us take the higher figure of 3 million child abuse AND neglect, of which 1 million were confirmed. Let us assume all the million cases were of sexual abuse, which is reasonable as children usually suffer from such crimes. And let us assume children from 0 to 18 are abused giving 18 million (a wildly high figure) which just about matches up with the Pakistan figure allowing for the difference in population.

M:The difference is wide clear. These are not new figures. It is from the same report I quoted earlier in previous messages. U still have some doubts Plato?/???

P: I have given above what I think are more realistic calculations. And you forgot one little detail Maqsood. I requested you to read the report carefully and in full. It seems you have not done so:

The report is based only on cases reported in national newspapers in Pakistan. Can you imagine the actual numbers Maqsood?

>>yo mean that single murder is not serious enough. But honestly tell me that having sex once, will you have more desire for next sex or less desire??? It will definitely be more. Then who will stop u to have 2^nd sex, murder, drinks. There is no end. And this is practically proved by the facts from your society described in above reports.

P:What you are trying to say is unclear but would you kindly tell us what you think of the reports from the land of your Prophet and the land of the pure, Pakistan.<<

M: What science is involved that is unclear to u people??? Read again in context Plato!

(U Said: Admitting to taking a few drinks once in a while has made me into an

P: Actually I still do not understand but let me make a guess. The clue seems to be in: (U Said: Admitting to taking a few drinks once in a while has made me into an alcoholic. Having sex once in a while makes me a sex maniac?)

You assume that because one has sex once one will be prone to seek more. True, but only Muslim men who claim that merely seeing nude pictures excite them so much that they go out and commit sex offences seem to actually commit such crimes. The others, ie in our infidel world, have sex with a their wives or seek consensual sex elsewhere. They do not become sex maniacs. Muslim men are so deprived of female company by their religion that they become sexually desperate and have no recourse but go and find a female to have forced sex.

P:Maqsood, the basics of faith should, I believe, be based on logic. If not I can believe in voodoo, ghosts, in the tooth fairy…..and Allah.

M: yoU re right that's why I am trying to make you understand with logic 1^st so that it can provide basics to your faith. Now you don't have any faith…..

P: I hope some of the logic of what I have said has come through to you.

Regards

Plato

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