Alcohlism Prohibited as per Nature

Submitted by Maqsood (Pakistan), Aug 20, 2007 at 06:11

P:Maqsood, you cannot leave Allah aside. He claims to know everything, including the past and the future. You should ask yourself why Allah allowed situations which allow incest in such large numbers. It raises questions about his ability to create good human beings. Either that or he is not bothered about his creation.

Allah has made alcohol a ‘big sin'. But Allah did not make slavery a big sin. He did not make wife-beating a big sin. Is not keeping and dealing in slaves and beating your spouse bigger sins than having a few drinks?

M:Plato! again hypocrytic attack, when u r not able to answer logically, u r making Allah (Faith of Muslims) responsible for evil things. As it was decided to discuss the things only logically 1st and then we can connect these logics with our faith, thats y i said leave Allah aside. I was trying to make you understand the the principles of Islam without bringing in Allah Almighty. But i m feeling that you have closed the doors of your heart and mind. From your point of view, if you cant leave Allah aside, it means you definitely have some believe in Allah. If it is so we should finallaize 1st our discuusion towards Allah Almighty. We should analyze for what He is responsible and for what He is not. We can discuss slavery and wife beating (as per u) in islam once u confess that Alcohol forbidden in Islam is as per nature or you will have to prove it to me that it is illogical.

M:Now think that the data given below like sexual experience with a family member" found a 28 percent prevalence, with 50 percent of the contact between siblings and 30 percent of the sibling contacts involving force. Would it be possible without alcohol or alcoholism.<<

P:Where does this data link up alcohol with incest. You have linked it for no particular reason. Asking whether incest in such large numbers would be possible without alcohol is a rhetorical question. The answer is not obvious. I can quote a lot of statistics for Muslims committing violence against other Muslims in Pakistan and can then ask whether it is not due to the violence taught in madrassas. Would I be right in assuming that it is madrassa education without statistics linking the two? As you keep telling me, think.

M:See the link between alcoholism and incest.

Because crime and violence are associated with alcoholism, incest and battering are common in alcoholics' families. According to Berger, almost 30 percent of father – daughter incest cases and 75 percent of domestic violence cases involve a family member who is an alcoholic. Incest and battering victims often blame themselves for what has happened. Because they feel so guilty, ashamed, and helpless, they themselves may turn to drinking as the way to escape the pain. "Children of alcoholics are people who have been robbed of their childhood" (Silverstein, 1990, p.75). Children of alcoholics, if untreated as children, carry their problems into later life.

http://allpsych.com/journal/alcoholism.html

P:Islam accepts and reveres the prophets of the Bible, including Ibrahim and Loot. Abraham committed incest with his half-sister. Abraham's nephew, Loot's daughters induced him to commit incest with them. Nowhere does Allah condemn them for this. How could He, since the human race according to your religion is descended from Adam and Eve, which necessarily means that we are all the result of incestuous relationships. It is disbelievers like us who reject such stories and condemn incest unreservedly and without equivocation.

M: yoU r making such shameful blames on our holy prophets ( But also the Christians) without any reference. Can you show me authentic reference for what you have said. There is no doubt that loot's nation was involved in homosexuality like you people and was destroyed (except the pious ones) completely. U can find their signs from the history. So what will happen to you people think???// Also tell me what do you say about prophet Jesus and Moses???

>>Now you and anybody who considers a glass or two, lawful or small sin, how will guarantee that he will never go beyond this limit. Who will stop you especially when you re upset by your girl friend or any business reason. you cant stop yourself or at least everybody cant do that…., So as a result one more person will go toward alcoholism and only then he can commit such inhuman acts.<<

P:Researchers Identify Alcoholism Gene

Alcohol Addiction, High Anxiety Linked to Same Gene

By Jeanie Lerche Davis
WebMD Medical News

May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.

The finding also provides evidence that an inborn high level of anxiety is part of this picture. The study appears in this week's issue of the Journal of Neuroscience. (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20040526/researchers-identify-alcoholism-gene)

…. Genes clearly do contribute to alcoholism. However, even when a gene like GABRG3 is found, that does not mean we understand the genetic basis of alcoholism. The researchers do not yet know how changes in the GABA gene increase a person's risk of alcoholism. (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119)

Maqsood study these two articles. Allah cannot escape responsibility for alcoholism in humans. Despite the caveat in the second article, slowly but surely science is narrowing in on Allah as the cause for alcoholism!!

M: What do you want to prove from these studies?? Either there is God who made genes??? Or we all r out of responsibility for what we do…..

May be tomorrow you will say that I m not responsible for murdering but a gene created by Allah Almighty???

Be sensible Plato! There are genes and there is God, but you r responsible for what you do.

>>M: truly no religion…. But then why most of you people consider it lawful to drink (one glass or 100 glass). you will say you don't have any religion…., that's why I m putting all this information in front of you, so that you analyze and see what are you getting from this alcohol or alcoholism.<<

P: Maqsood you first have to confront the fact that Allah has put genes in some of us that can cause alcoholism. Start your analysis from that simple fact.

M: Plato what a senseless statement you r giving. 1^st admit that Allah created you and everything including genes in you, then I will tell you the secret behind genes coding. Also tell me that if these genes are more in you people???

>>M: Ok leave the Muslim world ( this don't mean that I agree about figs in Islamic countries, I will provide those to u soon). Let them go their way.. But are not you scared of these figs in your countries. I believe you will not have any doubt now in these figs.. So what are the reasons to such inhumane things? This is so called civilized world. How a person having some little sense can do all this. Think honestly….analyze … and find the truth…. I believe u will know all realities of faith, civilization and Islam.<<

P:I absolutely do not doubt those figures you have quoted. They seem to be from impeccable sources. I am scared of those figures. And as you keep telling me, think honestly. Who created you, me and all else. Allah. Did He know what kind of people He was creating? If He did why did He create us? Allah cannot escape responsibility for the crimes of humanity. He created us the way we are.

M: So as per your statement you r free to do anything. U can drink, you can do incest, you can murder any thing you like. Again if you really want to know y He created us, believe in Allah, I will tell you. But why could not you answer. What are the reasons to such inhumane things in your point of view? This is so called civilized world.

P:And your saying let Islamic countries go their way shows you have no clue to what is really happening in Muslim countries regarding such crimes. Since non-Islamic countries are honest and open enough to reveal statistics about crimes in their countries you use it in way that seems to imply that if they followed Islam they would be free of such crimes. Maqsood, as I keep telling you unless you can put figures from believable sources for similar crimes in Muslim countries you have no case for Islam improving people's morals or ethics.

M: are you in doubt that Islam forbids incest, illegal sex, rape, alcoholism, pork eating etc. whY you don't tell me the reasons of such a pathetic condition where people don't follow Islam or any religion. I know you r afraid to confess the truth. I have told you the reasons of such incidents (although too small comparatively) in Islamic countries. i.e not to obey The Islam.

P:And I have shown you how Allah's prophets indulged in this sin of incest.

M: yoU non Muslims especially atheists always try to do such shameful acts. Can you show me your source of information.

>>M: Instead of learning some lesson by seeing your face you are misguiding the humanity by putting these blemishes over our Holy Prophet PBUH. This is a pity Plato….

P:You have to admit that the only blemish less being is Allah. That means even the Prophet can have blemishes. And blemishes he had in plenty. Books have been written about them.

M: Yeah people like you try to do so but they have never succeeded in their ugly intentions. Can you show me any authentic reference in favor of your statement???, Again until you don't believe in Allah, such statements about Him don't suit you.

P: What really is a pity is that Muslims have been indoctrinated into believing that whatever their Prophet did is blameless. When it is obvious that he did some things that were clearly cruel, unethical or immoral Allah intervenes with verses that absolve him. And Allah intervenes AFTER the Prophet had committed an unethical or immoral act.

M: Again you r making statements that are totally wrong. Can you show me your reference??? I m sorry you r such a narrow minded person. yoU wanted logical discussion. Tell me if it is logical to put such blames on a Prophet of Allah without any solid reference. See his whole life?? yoU can not find such a true, pure from any sort of crime person in the whole human history. See the reasons given by a Non Muslim Author of top 100 Personalities of Humanity, in which He gave him the rank of No. 1.

Michael H. Hart, The 100, Hart Publishing Company, New York, 1978

My choice of Muhammad to lead the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. Of humble origins, Muhammad founded and promulgated one of the world's great religions, and became an immensely effective political leader. Today, thirteen centuries after his death, his influence is still powerful and pervasive. (Page 33).

"How, then, is one to assess the overall impact of Muhammad on human history? Like all religions, Islam exerts an enormous influence upon the lives of its followers. It is for this reason that the founders of the world's great religions all figure prominently in this book. Since there are roughly twice as many Christians as Muslims in the world, it may initially seen strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principle reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role in the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principle proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.

Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition, he played the key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam." (Pages 38, 39)

P:You have forgotten one little truth about your Prophet's marriage to Aysha. Aysha in several shahi hadiths clearly indicates her age was six and that she was playing with dolls at the time she was taken to the Prophet's house. If you doubt her testimony then you have to doubt all hadiths traced back to her. And if she was 18 when she went to the Prophet's house and was still playing with dolls then surely she was mentally deficient for that age. Again all her hadiths become unreliable.

M:Can you quote me the reference Ahadiths Plato????

P:It has been pointed out many times that the Prophet not marrying while Khadija was alive had a lot to do with the fact that Khadija being the one with the money (the Prophet was a poor employee of hers) Mohammed would have found it tough to marry another woman. But the moment he was free of Khadija he went about marrying with abandon. Also it has been pointed out that marriage to Saudah was another one of convenience as he needed a matron to take care of his children.

M: What a pity oyu r??? What a liar you r??? How can u say that?? Have you read about his life?? Do you know how he lived? How he used to sleep? What he used to eat? He spent the life of a role model for the whole humanity. I am sure now you can never learn something good because your mission is to spread falsehood intentionally. It is said in Quran about people like you who are deaf, dumb etc. I hope now you understand the context of that ayat. For other peoples clarity I will ask do you have any reference about your statements??

To see the life of our Holy Prophet See in the links;

http://jamaat.org/islam/ProphetofMakkah.html

http://www.al-islamforall.org/Prpofall/PRPOFALL.ASP

P:You have conveniently mixed reliable and unreliable sources to arrive at varying figures for Ayesha's age but refuse to believe shahi hadiths where Ayesha herself reports in several of them her tender age at the time of her marriage. Why don't you come out openly and say that Ayesha was lying about her age?

M: But u could not show me even a single hadith for what you r claiming…..

>>…More than 60 million adult survivors of incest and sexual child abuse live in America. *Note these are only reported cases. It is believed as great as 50% of sexual child abuse is unreported. Forward, 1993<<

P: Maqsood with the internet as a resource you have access to, I am surprised that you did not search for data on child abuse and crimes in Muslim societies. I did one and found this about Pakistan. Go through it carefully and tell me what you think of the statistics in it. Are those crimes against children due to alcohol and pork?

M: Good at last you found something. Plato ! 1^st of all you should clear your mind that I m not fighting with you for Muslims against pagans, for east against west or for believers against non believers. Instead my fight is for the religion Islam as ordered by Allah Almighty and as practiced by Prophet Muhammad PBUH and his close companions (Sahaba) against any other religion or practices being carried out by anyone, anywhere. If some one do against Islam ( Quran and Sunnah) he or that society has to suffer for that wrong deed, sometimes at once and sometimes after a period. I never gave the feeling that if a Muslim drinks wine it is lawful for him and he will not be punished in this world and Hereafter too. Similarly for other non Islamic practices one has to be answer able or suffer from its bad effects whether he is Muslim or non Muslim. I also agree that there are lot of people in the world who are Muslims just by name and they don't follow the teachings of Islam and do all type of sins like alcoholism, rape and other evils. But the point is what Islam says about these??/

As you shown a few examples from Muslim world, they might be true, but It is due to, not obeying Islam. Also see the important thing that as Most of the Muslims still follow the basics of Islam that's y these type of incidents are far less as compared to the societies where there is no Islam.

I saw the whole list from where you picked these stories.

yoU can also check at

http://wordpress.com/tag/outrageous-rulings/

For your information what I found that most of the stories like you given, are from Non Islamic Countries. I just quoted one below.

Australia - Child sex victim to pay

January 9th, 2007 — Lisa

Article
Mark Oberhardt
January 09, 2007 11:00pm

A CHILD sex victim is faced with a hefty legal bill after she failed to win an extension of time in which she could sue her molester.

The woman is the latest in a string of child sex victims to have gone to the District Court seeking an extension of the limitation period in which to bring the civil action.

Applications have involved judges reviewing the Limitation of Actions Act 1974 and there have been widely varying results.

The woman, who cannot be identified, was molested by a family member from the time she was three until aged about 12, between April 1981 and December 1990.

She did not complain to police until 1995 and the man who molested her eventually pleaded guilty to seven charges of indecent dealing.

The limitation period for her to bring an action expired in 1999 and she sought an extension on the basis she had a "material fact of a decisive nature" which she had not known until a year before the claim was filed in August last year.

The "decisive fact" was an assessment she was suffering a psychiatric condition as a result of being molested.

Although admitting he had molested her, the man denied he had caused her any injury and argued the action was barred under relevant legislation.

In a written judgment, which became available yesterday, Judge John McGill refused to extend the limitation period.

He found the woman knew what the man had done to her and knew the symptoms she suffered.

Judge McGill said that if it wasn't for the limitation argument, the woman had a right of action as there was no dispute that she was molested.

He said if there was a trial the point to argue would be quantum of any damages paid to her.

Judge McGill dismissed the woman's action and ordered she pay the defendant's costs.

Posted in Family Perpatrators, THE FACTS, FIGURES & FIGHT, THE PERPETRATORS, Speaking Up & Speaking Out, Statutes of

P:I have picked up a report about Saudi Arabia which says that 77% of child abusers in the country are parents. Like you link incest in the West to alcohol and pork would I be justified in attributing the horrors the Saudi's commit to what they learn in the Koran. Or is it because they eat halal meat? Can you see the connection, Maqsood?? Let me tell you. Watching or slitting the throat of an animal and leaving it to die a painful death can inure you to the pain felt by others, even humans.

"Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabia: Minors Most Likely Victims of Sexual Abuse, Studies Show

December 19th, 2006 — Tina

JEDDAH, Dec 19: According to recent studies, 60 percent of all sexual assault victims are minors. Family members commit nearly one third of these incidents.

M: Plato! Can you quote me the total number of such victims. As 60 % also mean 3 out of total 5 incidents.

Addressing the issue of family violence at the Jeddah Chamber of Industry and Commerce on Sunday night, Inaam Robai, chairperson of the Committee for Protecting Children's Rights at the Armed Forces Hospital, said that child abuse in Saudi Arabia has become a very serious issue.

"The term ‘family violence' includes many different forms of abuse, mistreatment or neglect that adults or children may experience in their homes," said Robai. "As our understanding of the nature and extent of violence within intimate relationships and families improves, and our insight deepens, the definition of family violence continues to evolve."

She pointed out that Interior Ministry studies have shown that 45 percent of children are mistreated during their daily lives.

M: More important is how many total children are mistreated.

"Unfortunately we don't like to talk about the problem and we always ignore it here in Saudi Arabia," she said.

Robai cited a study of Makkah households estimating that 77 percent of child abusers are parents.

M: More important is how many total children are mistreated. Can u tell me total no. of incidents in Saudi Arabia.

"Abuse may take place anywhere and may occur, for example, within the child's home or that of someone known to the child," she said.

"Many cases of child abuse remain undisclosed, either because a child does not, or cannot, tell anyone what has happened to them, or because no one reports the abuse to the authorities."(http://sadlynormal.wordpress.com/tag/world-news/saudi-arabia/)

For other interesting articles just google ‘incest Pakistan or incest Saudi arabia'

>>M: there is no need to discuss. These figures are self explaining….. Plato! Are not you horrified from these??/ Don't you consider them true??? What are their reasons, think honestly. Where you people are going??? What is next??

M: Plato, this statistics are from your own sources…Yes now you have come to the point that Why do they not exist this is only because that we have fear from Allah Almighty. If we do these type of acts, we will have to be answerable to HIM. Other wise we will be punished in this world and hereafter.

Actually as I said before Islam gives the best system to spend the life. Life is not only to do ones own wishes. If you go that way you will definitely be lost in evil things.<<

You claim: ‘Yes now you have come to the point that Why do they not exist this is only because that we have fear from Allah Almighty.'

P: You also make the claim that Islam gives the best ‘system to spend life'. I have given a link to an article about child abuse in Pakistan. Please go through it carefully and read about the ‘system' of life Islam has given to Pakistani children. Also tell your readers after reading it whether as you claim such crimes do not exist in Islamiccountries.(http://www.sahil.org/abt_publications_cruelnumbers.html)

Click on Cruel Numbers 2006 and read the full report from Muslim sources.

I have picked out some interesting statements from it for your information and comment.

‘Sahil has taken the initiative of producing a yearly statistical report based on child sexual abuse cases reported in the national newspapers. This data is collected with the aim to know the bitter realities.

The aim of producing this report is to equip the general public and child policy makers with the incidents of child sexual abuse (CSA) in Pakistan. It is difficult to measure the prevalence of CSA in our society. Many incidents will never be reported especially those committed by family members.'

The report is based only on cases reported in national newspapers in Pakistan. Can you imagine the actual numbers Maqsood?

‘The data in this year.s report reveals that the child sexual abuse rate in Pakistan is touching the figure of approximately 4 children a day.'

M: As I have said earlier these people who commit such crimes are not Muslims. Islam does not accept these people. They will definitely be punished. Islam is not the cause. Actual culprit is nude media that is mainly western who is blinding the Muslims from Islam. But if u want to see the difference in an Islamic country and a Non Muslim country See the percentage difference in the number of incidents. As u quoted in Pakistan it will be

Comparison, Child abuse cases

In 2006, Pakistan child abuse cases 4 per day, that is 1460 per year, 0.0009 % of total population (total population of Pakistan in 2006 was 130 Million). These are reported figures may 50% of actual)

In America child abuse cases 3,000 children Per Day and four of them will die. (Forty % of these children were under the age of six……. ) that is 1095,000 in year 2000. 0.50 % of total population (US population in 2000 was 275 Million. Extrapolate to 2006. (These are also reported figures, 50% of actual)

The difference is wide clear. These are not new figures. It is from the same report I quoted earlier in previous messages. U still have some doubts Plato?/???

>>yo mean that single murder is not serious enough. But honestly tell me that having sex once, will you have more desire for next sex or less desire??? It will definitely be more. Then who will stop u to have 2^nd sex, murder, drinks. There is no end. And this is practically proved by the facts from your society described in above reports.<<

P:What you are trying to say is unclear but would you kindly tell us what you think of the reports from the land of your Prophet and the land of the pure, Pakistan.

M: What science is involved that is unclear to u people??? Read again in context Plato!

(U Said: Admitting to taking a few drinks once in a while has made me into an alcoholic. Having sex once in a while makes me a sex maniac?

M: Amazed by your good thought Plao! Applause……

>>You mean that single murder is not serious enough. But honestly tell me that having sex once, will you have more desire for next sex or less desire??? It will definitely be more. Then who will stop u to have 2^nd sex, murder, drinks. There is no end. And this is practically proved by the facts from your society described in above reports.<<)

I hope now you better understand Plato!

M: Actually these belong to faith. I can go in detail to each of these. But I want to keep this discussion to alcoholism. I want to go with you from logic to faith.<<

P:Maqsood, the basics of faith should, I believe, be based on logic. If not I can believe in voodoo, ghosts, in the tooth fairy…..and Allah.

M: yoU re right that's why I am trying to make you understand with logic 1^st so that it can provide basics to your faith. Now you don't have any faith…..

Maqsood

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