This reply is much better

Submitted by Maqsood (Pakistan), Aug 9, 2007 at 07:10

P:You may think I am a hypocrite. But I certainly don't think you are one. You come on as a sincere Muslim defending his faith, but without a clue to what is science, little logic in what you say and history that is anything but history, except in the Islamic understanding of it.

Your prophet suffered from a plague of hypocrites. You will continue to suffer this one till you come up with logical answers to what posters on this board ask.

M: Thanks for your comments. I did not want to hurt you but my point is we should have a focused discussuion. topic by topic so that we can reach some conclusion. yeah i am not a scientist in all fields but i can provide you the latest research results along with references. But wat i demand from you is that once you see that reference about some typical issue/topic, you should confess of being convinced for at least that topic or issue and closed for future discussion.

Yeah following my Prophet PBUH i will take the opportunity to accept this challenge.

P:Talking about God, faith and the Koran does not mean one believes in it. The knighthood given to Rushdie brought up the many facets and defects of Islam. I am questioning the basis of your beliefs, they being the reason for Muslim reaction to Rushdie. And the core of Muslim belief is God, faith and the Koran all of which are being examined minutely.

M:U mistaken me actually. What i meant that as you dont believe in God, we should 1st concentrate on logical reasons to find the truth about Islam. We can discuss God too (also logically ) in some parallel discussion as i have already asked you few questions about your believes about God/god in yesterdays message.

P:Maqsood what kind of reasoning are you using? If your reasoning is based on faith (i.e. blind belief) then we will never reach any conclusion. We may be able to reach a conclusion if we use logic.

M: I m not discussing with you as per blind belief. Rather i am giving you statistical data from reliable resources and research results from recognised universities and same i expect from you.

P: I am sure you are not afraid of anyone. But we pagans are sure afraid of Muslims given your past and present history of killing people who question your faith and its tenets. That is why you will find posters here use pseudonyms unlike most Muslims who confidently use their own names. Muslims know that even if they criticize and abuse other faiths they need not fear an assassin's knife.

M:U again misused my words intentionally or unintentionally but i dont want to go in this discussion because it is endless in this way. I want to be focused topic by topic. What i meant that i m not afraid of discussion from any one of 3 given directions. (faith, faith to logic, logic to faith).

What i suggested: By putting scientific facts those are as per Quranic signs i only want to make you people understand better, and from my point of view these should be the starting point for onward discussion.( Logic to faith)<<

P:I understand that the Koran is a book of signs and not a book of science.But look at some of the signs it contains.

1. Bees eat fruit? (16:68-69)

2. Sperm arises near the backbone. (86:07)

3. Stars fall (onto what?). (81:02)

4. The moon along with the sun orbits the sun but the Koran says: ‘It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon'. (36:40)

5. The sun sets in a murky pool. (18:86)

6. Stars have been created as missiles to drive away the devil. (67:5)

7. Mountains are pegs to stabilize the earth. (78:7, 16:15)

M: It's a good list, but there are many many signs told in Quran. Please add as many as you can to this list. I will also try to add so that we can prepare a comprehensive list. Once a resonable list say 100 items agreed we can discuss all one by one and segregate as proved as per Islam and Science compatible or Incompatible or not solved. Currently i m adding the following:

8. Pork is forbidden.

9. Alcoholism is haram

10. Circumcism is necessary

11. Finger Prints

12. There is a barrier between sea water and plain water.

13. CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE: ‘THE BIG BANG'

14. INITIAL GASEOUS MASS BEFORE CREATION OF GALAXIES

15. SHAPE OF THE EARTH IS SPHERICAL

16. MOONLIGHT IS REFLECTED LIGHT

17. THE SUN ROTATES

18. THE SUN WILL EXTINGUISH

19. INTERSTELLAR MATTER

20. THE EXPANDING UNIVERSE

21. ATOMS CAN BE DIVIDED

22. THE WATER CYCLE

23. EVAPORATION

24. WINDS IMPREGNATE CLOUDS

25. MOUNTAINS FIRMLY FIXED

26. DARKNESS IN DEPTHS OF OCEAN

27. It is He Who has Created man from water

28. PLANTS HAVE MALE AND FEMALE

29. FRUITS HAVE MALE AND FEMALE

30. EVERYTHING MADE IN PAIRS

31. ANIMALS AND BIRDS LIVE IN COMMUNITIES

32. THE FLIGHT OF BIRDS

33. THE BEE AND ITS SKILL

34. SPIDER'S WEB, THE FRAGILE HOME

35. LIFESTYLE AND COMMUNICATION OF ANTS

36. HONEY: HEALING FOR HUMANKIND

37. BLOOD CIRCULATION AND MILK

38. Cherisher, Who created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood

39. NUTFAH – MINUTE QUANTITY OF LIQUID

40. SEX DETERMINATION

41. FOETUS PROTECTED BY THREE VEILS OF DARKNESS

42. EMBRYOLOGICAL STAGES

43. EMBRYO PARTLY FORMED AND PARTLY UNFORMED

44. SENSE OF HEARING AND SIGHT

45. PAIN RECEPTORS IN THE SKIN

This is all from my side for today. I will see your response regarding this list.

P:Maqsood read some of the so-called signs in the Koran given below. Does it require Allah to point out these everyday occurances?

M: If you dont consider anyone of mentioned ones not as signs, i will not mind. you can choose as you like and add to the list.

P: I have given a detailed reply in my previous posts, including the last one titled ‘ Pigs are really humans in pigskin'.

But you seem incapable of answering two very simple questions: If penile foreskin is something that Allah dislikes why did he give it to us. If it is a health hazard, did Allah make a mistake in designing us?

These are two questions to which I would like an answer from you.

M: I will answer these questions, but does it mean that otherwise you agree on Alcohlism, Circumcision and pork forbidden.

Ans to these questions; 1st of all if you re of thought that discussion should be based on logic only then why are you bringing God in it. U should see only as per the research and statistics provided to you.

However i will answer your question for now.

Allah is independent of all kind of mistakes. He created us as he liked. None of us has any power to object. Although we can anlayse now as per our limited wisdom that almost everything is as per nature by itself. As long as penile foreskin is concerned it was produced by Allah Almighty to prtect and hide the penis when proper clothing was not available in the early ages of man,s history. When time moved and man made clothes Allah ordered for circumcism as it was more favorable for new age men. Tell me why do you shave or remove unwanted hair?? let it be as Allah created you.

My reasoning is further strengthened by the following history. If it is even a practice in the classical Greek Times then before this period it would be even more logical.

History

In classical Greek times the exposure of the glans of the penis was considered offensive and men with short foreskin would wear the Kynodesme to prevent its accidental exposure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin_restoration

Classical Period (500-336 BC) - Classical period of ancient Greek history, is fixed between about 500 B. C., when the Greeks began to come into conflict with the kingdom of Persia to the east, and the death of the Macedonian king and conqueror Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. In this period Athens reached its greatest political and cultural heights: the full development of the democratic system of government under the Athenian statesman Pericles; the building of the Parthenon on the Acropolis; the creation of the tragedies of Sophocles, Aeschylus and Euripides; and the founding of the philosophical schools of Socrates and Plato. Early Bronze Age (2900 - 2000) - The period in antiquity that corresponds to the introduction of metallurgy, notably bronze-working, for making tools, weapons, and ceremonial objects.

Archaic Period (750 - 500 BC) - The period in which the beginnings of Greek monumental stone sculpture and other developments in the naturalistic representation of the human figure are found. During the Archaic Age the Greeks developed the most widespread and influential of their new political forms, the city-state, or polis . Rise of the aristocracies. Greek colonization of Southern Italy and Sicily begins.

Mycenaean Age (600 - 1100 BC) - Period of high cultural achievement, forming the backdrop and basis for subsequent myths of the heroes. It was named for the kingdom of Mycenae and the archaeological site where fabulous works in gold were unearthed. The Mycenaean Age was cut short by widespread destruction ushering in the Greek Dark Age.

• Mycenaean Tholos Tombs and Early Mycenaean Settlements
• The Collapse of Mycenaean Palatial Civilization and the Coming of the Dorians
• The Myceneans

  The Dark Ages (1100 - 750 BC) - The period between the fall of the Mycenean civilizations and the readoption of writing in the eigth or seventh century BC. After the Trojan Wars the Mycenaeans went through a period of civil war, the country was weak and a tribe called the Dorians took over. Some speculate that Dorian invaders from the north with iron weapons laid waste the Mycenaean culture. Others look to internal dissent, uprising and rebellion, or perhaps some combination.

  • The Greek Dark Ages
    A chapter on the history and culture of the Greek Dark Ages.
  • The Dorians
    one of the three main groups of people of ancient Greece, the others being the Aeolians and the Ionians, who invaded from the north in the 12th and 11th centuries BC.
  • The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean
    the Bronze Age civilization that developed (c. 3000-1200 BC) in the basin of the Aegean Sea, mainly on Crete, the Cyclades, and the mainland of Greece.
  • The Early Cycladic Period
    small island group (Cyclades) situated in the centre of the Aegean in Greece, which developed a unique and distinctive civilization that flourished from around 3200-2000 BC.
  • The Early Minoan Period:The Settlements
    Bronze Age civilization, centring on the island of Crete, that flourished c. 3000 to 1100 BC. It was named after the legendary king Minos.
    Evans divided Minoan civilization into three periods: Early Minoan (c. 3000-c. 2200 BC), Middle Minoan (c. 2200-c. 1600 BC), and Late Minoan (c. 1600-c. 1100 BC).
  • The Early Minoan Period: The Tombs
  • Western Anatolia and the Eastern Aegean in the Early Bronze Age

  Minoan Age(2000 - 1400 BC ) - Bronze Age civilization, centring on the island of Crete. It was named after the legendary king Minos. It is divided into three periods: the early Minoan period (c.3000-2200 B.C.), the Middle Minoan period (c.2200-1500 B.C.) and the Late Minoan period (c.1500-1000 B.C.).

  • Middle Minoan Crete
  • The Minoans
  • The History of The Minoans

  Think Seriously

  yours Sincere

  Maqsood

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