Whatever Allah does is wonderful. Isn't it wonderful that He made me an unbeliever?

Submitted by Plato (India), Dec 25, 2008 at 23:52

Bayezid, you wrote:

>>yeah youre right. youre catching on. you are unbeliever cuz HE willed it is right.<<

If He willed I am unbeliever why then does Allah curse and abuse me? Is Allah not indirectly abusing and cursing Himself by doing so? Can you find a logical fallacy, even an Islamic one, in this?

>>but do you realize that HE also wills that you are too stupid to realize that HE has given you the capability to ask HIM for guidance and so you are unabale to even wish to be a bekliever.<<

Great Islamic logic! Allah has willed that I am so very stupid that I will not realize that He has given me the capability to ask Him for guidance. If He has made me so stupid how in Allah's name can I understand my capabilities? After doing this if Allah wants me to ask for His guidance who would you say is really stupid, me, the person who comes up with this statement or Allah? I have my stupidity as an excuse but what about you and Allah??

You conclude by saying ‘so you are unable to even wish to be a believer.' When you reached this conclusion if you had gone back and checked your initial statement a bell would have rung and you would have realized who is stupid.

>> i can go on whooping so its really upto you. its your life, and if you are openly admitting to your own flaws one can only wonder what is keeping you from improving your condition. whatever does happen and does not, all is by HIS will.<<

Read the underlined sentences. I hope what I am trying to tell about Islamic logic has registered by now. Why do you waste your time and mine by keeping on wondering when ALL IS BY HIS WILL??

>>hey at least we agree on one thing.<<

Where have I claimed that ALL IS BY HIS WILL?? Using your logic of everything is by Allah's will to show the fallacies it will lead to is not the same as agreeing to them. But how stupid of me! You are trying to tell me that we both are agreed that I am stupid. Did I demonstrate to you the greater stupidity of the other two persons in this argument. If you have not followed the argument it is because Allah has made me so stupid that I cannot make myself understood to the 1.5 brilliant people He has created.

>>well, logic we humans use isnt universal.<<

I realized that logic is not universal arguing with Muslims on this blog. I realized that there is a special logic which is understood only by Muslims which they have derived from the Koran. A nice example would be: The Koran says it is the word of Allah. What is the proof? It is written in the Koran. QED.

>>so yeah it is a matter of accepting different logic to see the truth.<<

If I accepted the logic you live by I would also be a Muslim. The logic I have no problem with is defined as: Logic: (Wordweb): The branch of philosophy that analyses inference or Reasoned and reasonable judgment

>>because the truth, unlike us, is not trapped in small logic comprehensible to the mere mind.<<

If truth is incomprehensible to mere mind there is no point in discussing it as we have been endowed with ‘mere minds' by Allah. I hope this small logic is obvious to you. If you believe truth is beyond the mind you should not be posting here because most of the posters here believe truth is comprehensible.

>>ALLAH led people through changing times until now.<<

What Islamic logic led you to this conclusion? The Koran says so?

>>ALLAH had o bring the change gradually. and it is solely for our benefit.<<

What Islamic logic led you to this conclusion? The Koran says so?

>>HE is not a tyrant that demands total obedience in one swoop. HE readies us for it and then demands it.<<

He banned interest in one swoop. He banned alcohol in two swoops. He has not banned slavery in 1400 years. Are Muslims still not ready for this which is why He has not demanded it?

>>ALLAH says in the quran that we would not be able to understand the revelation if it was revealed in one go ltogether.<<

What is difficult about telling Muslims that keeping slavery is a matter of shame and a blot on His reputation as a just creator?? Will Muslims not be able to understand this order or was it that Allah was afraid that they would disobey Him. Who after all would want to give up all those beautiful slave girls in their harems.

>>HE could do it altogether in one go but it isnt about that. its about HIM guiding us in an easier way. a way that is good for us.<<

In the cases of his prophet's desires Allah does do things in one go. Recall how he married Zainab. Allah removed the ban on father-laws marrying their adopted son's wives in one go even though the Arabs found this immoral in the extreme. What was the tearing hurry in removing this unwritten law?

>>ALLAH familiarized ourselves with our own virtues and shortcomings and so revealed his messages slowly. its a sign of kindness.<<

I can't think of any virtues Allah has given us, but He has given us plenty of shortcomings. Minds that cannot comprehend truth, for instance. Minds that cannot comprehend His revelations if revealed at one go. Our inability to refrain from taking slaves and using them as sex objects.

Our minds would not not comprehend it if he banned the keeping of slaves. Since He has Himself given us these weaknesses he knows that our weakness for slaves will never be overcome. That is why he has still not sent an ordinance banning slavery. Or is it because He has a bit of a problem in that Muhammad has banned Him from ever again opening His mouth. Allah therefore had to keep quite when the rest of the world ganged up against Muslims and enforced a ban on slavery.

And yes Allah was very kind to His prophet. Allah being familiar with his shortcomings decided to change the rule against marrying your daughter-in-law so that Muhammad could have his heart's desire.

>>and i believe even your logic would behoove you to appreciate kindness with thanks. not insolent criticism.<<

Allah was kind to Muslims men and to the Prophet but he is very cruel to unbelievers like me. Bayezid show any kindness that Allah has shown towards unbelievers and I will stop insolent criticism. Allah considers me among the worst of beasts fit only to be tortured in hell. He also thinks I am unclean. He calls me blind, deaf and without intelligence. He should know, as He created me the way I am. If my criticism is insolent it is because Allah willed it to be so. You know that very well, as you have been telling me so often. Why do you complain?

>>Muhammad never said beat women. i am muslim and i know this for a fact.

You are proving to be a very poor kind of Muslims if you have not read Koran 4:34. This is the Koran telling you can thrash women. Muhammad confirmed this in his last sermon. ‘The Life of Muhammad', by Ibn Ishaq, translation published by Oxford University Press, Pakistan, page 651: You have right over your wives and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them but not with severity…..Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having not control of their persons……

Read the underlined words carefully. The sermon does not set out women's rights explicitly as it has done for men. It seems to me the rights women have is not to be beaten severely and to be treated kindly just as you would your prisoners by giving them food and clothes.

>> not even the prisoners in fact the prisoners are to be treated better than your own friends. and are to be fed betterthan ones own people. this is islamic law <<

As a true believing Muslim how many of your Muslim friends are willing to become your prisoners. Especially the poor them among should be more than willing to live as your prisoners if they confident that you are a true Mulim?

>>do you have this law? did anyone ever have this law before this?<<

The Golden Rule was set down much before Muhammad. Read especially,the underlined rider the Talmud attaches to the rule.

Brahmanism: This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you. (Mahabharata 5:1517) Buddhism: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. (Udana-Varga 5:18) Confucianism: Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindess: Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. (Analects 15:23) Taoism: Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain and your neighbor's loss as your own loss. (Tai Shang Kan Ying P'ien) Zoroastrianism: That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself. (Dadistan-I-dinik 94:5) Judaism: What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 31a) Christianity: All things whatsoever ye would that man should do to you, do ye even so to them; for that is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12) Islam: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

http://www.geocities.com/unmark/golden_rule.html

Have you heard of Hammurabi??

Archaeologists and anthropologists have uncovered proof that early civilizations produced numerous codes of ethics predating those of modern religions. The Code of Hammurabi, which was discovered in Persia in 1901, predates by hundreds of years the oldest known code at that time, the Book of the Covenant of the Old Testament. Hammurabi ascended the Babylonian throne around 2250 BCE, and, showing a conciliatory attitude to the numerous gods worshipped by his subjects in various states under his control, described himself in the code's prologue as "of the seed royal which Sin begat", referring to the moon-god Sin, the creator-god of that time and region. But it was the Sun-god, Shamash, whose figure was carved into the stone and from whom King Hammurabi said he received the law codes which administered a uniform justice throughout his realm. His proclaimed goal of justice and a noteworthy consideration for the rights of women throughout Hammurabi's Code sets it apart from the later Hebrew codes upon which Judaism and Christianity were founded."
http://www.atheistalliance.org/outreach/news-1999_fall.html

Have you heard of Cyrus the Great?

Cyrus's Declaration

"I am Cyrus, the king of the world, great king, legitimate king … son of Cambyses … whose rule Bel and Nebo loved and whom they wanted as king to please their hearts.

"When I entered Babylon as a friend and established the seat of government in the place of the ruler under jubilation and rejoicing, Marduk, the great lord (induced) the magnanimous inhabitants of Babylon (Din Tir) (to love me) and I daily endeavored to praise him. My numerous troops walked around in Babylon in peace, I did not allow anybody to terrorize (any of the people) of the country of Sumer and Akkad. I strove for peace in Babylon (Ka Dingir ra) and in all his (other) sacred cities. As to the inhabitants of Babylon (who) against the will of the gods (had/were … I abolished) the corvee (yoke) which was against their (social standing). I brought relief to their dilapidated housing, putting an end to their main complaints. Marduk, the great lord, was well pleased with my deeds and sent friendly blessing to myself, Cyrus, the King, who reveres him, to Cambyses, my son, as well as to all my troops, and we all (praised) his great (name) joyously, standing before him in peace … I returned to (these) sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris, the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which (used) to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I (also) gathered all their (former) inhabitants and returned (to them) their habitations. Furthermore, I resettled upon the command of Marduk, the great lord, all the gods of Sumer and Akkad who Nabonidus has brought to Babylon (su sa na) to the anger of the lord of the gods unharmed in their chapels, the places which make them happy.

May all the gods whom I have resettled in their sacred cities ask Bel and Nebo daily for a long life … (six lines destroyed) and always with good words remember my good deeds … that Babylonians incessantly cherished me because I resettled them in comfortable habitations … http://www.vohuman.org/Article/The%20First%20Declaration%20of%20Human%20Rights.htm

Notice all of them had formulated humane laws much before Islam.

What about your prophet? He invaded without warning (Khaybar), he terrorized the Banu Mustaliq and wiped out the banu Quraiza. He set down laws that were against the Golden Rule, like the thrashing of wives.

>>and even if ALLAH ordered men to beat women like animals, which HE does not, and in fact forbids…<<

The Koran and Muhammad say that you can beat your wives. I have quoted both the Koran and sira to prove it. Are you telling me you have abrogated this verse and can quote a more authentic biography than that Ibn ishaq?

>>,… who are we to criticize it? HE made us HE has all the right over us. and can thus deal with us accordingly.<<

You are free with your criticism of Hindus and their caste system. Who are you to criticize what their Bhagwan has authorized. Their god tells them that He has created some people who are to be treated as third rate human beings. Bhagwan has all the rights over us and make whatever he bloody well pleases.

But you may have noticed that Hindus have put god in his place when it comes to mistreating humans.

>>if ALLAAH did order us to beat women then HE would do it after they are deserving of it. this isnt something we can detect.<<

You don't have to detect any fault in women. All you have to do is suspect them of being disobedient: 004.034 YUSUFALI: …… As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); ……

>>why? how? where? why would the sky be blue and not green or red? who ordered ozone to have a bluish hue than green or red? why do we havve grass that is green and not blue? did yo program chlorophyll to be green? or did ALLAH? so the same ALLAH who does these does that. HE can create unbelievers if HE so wants. becasue HE is GOD HE can. HE answers to no one. all answer to HIM alone. and HE is just. if some people HE created to be in hell, then surely HE created them evil to begin with. so i think we dont need our own small understanding of things to judge ALLAH with. thats why not anythng can be GOD. only GOD is GOD this is basic truth. so if its all about HIM, then whatever HE does he has a right to do. and only HE has that right.<<

Out of all that gobbledygook you have given me the underlined portion interests me. Bayezid study what I have underlined a little carefully. You say He created some people evil to begin with to populate hell. This would mean that whatever they do they are following Allah's will. Why then does Allah waste His breath ranting and raving about their evil. Why does He not take responsibility for their evil and enter Hell to punish Himself? That would be the right thing to do if He were as truly great as He claims.

>>hey like i said. ALLAH knows our secrets and hearts.<<

He should. You claim that He created to be either good or evil. We have no choice.

>> people that seem good outwardly all their lives can be evil inside. people that are good can commit crimes but later realize theur flaws.<< <

You have been the one saying that Allah decides who is evil and who good. What is there to judge in that case? He is responsible for me being evil or good.

>>so youre saying itsn ot ok for GOD to judge them accoring to their true natures?<

I am saying it is silly for Allah to sit in judgment on people who He has Himself created to be either good or evil. I know this not complicated Islamic logic but simple run-of-the-mill logic and hence you find what I said tough to understand.

>>these are things that HE knows best and not you or me. so can we please do ourselves a big favour and stop playing judge and jury? when it is us who are subjected to judgement ourselves.<<

Ask yourself why Allah is judging something which He has already decided upon i.e. who is going to do His evil work and who the good. Allah is wasting His time and energy waiting for judgment day. All He has to do is make a soul decide it is going to do evil and fling it into hell . Create another which He decides will be good and send him on his way to paradise. And so on. Why does He have to test us when He has already written down our answers for us?

>>you can stock up a bunker of sneeze guard if you wish. if ALLAH willed you would still sneeze, even if you had no nose or had any holes big enough for a horse to jump out of. and yes, it is scary. but dont be afraid, ALLAH is most merciful, most compassionate.<<

That is what I also said, He can do as He pleases and I can save on sneeze-guards. His compassion makes horses jump out of my orifices? I always knew your Allah was a high-class illusionist, plucking things out of my orifices. I am sure He knows which ones to avoid.

Regards

Plato

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".