Lieutenant General Ayyub: On teaching hate to your children and slavery in Islam

Submitted by Plato (India), Feb 12, 2009 at 20:52

.General Ayyub, you wrote:

>>But then again – india was always bitter about formation of Pakistan on August 14, 1947 (and the fact that they could never stop us)<<

We did nothing about the bitterness on the formation of Pakistan. We did not hold on to Bangladesh, now did we? A country bent on gobbling you up would have held on to East Pakistan. That was not even a consideration in India. Have you heard of any Indians saying that we should have held on to it.

Some of us may have felt that partition was a mistake for some time. But now I think the large majority of Indians think partition was a piece of good luck. Considering what is happening in your country, we have no desire to be sucked into the quagmire that is Pakistan now.

>>Yes it rings a bell......most of those bearded nut-cases ended up with bullet holes in them. Does Lal Masjid ring a bell? İ LL UPDATE YOU.....it was a holy place that was once again abused by people who are trying to bastardize our peaceful and tolerant religion. Dont worry –we dont have those cane-wielding nut jobs in any of the big cities. Thanks for your concerns.<<

General what is your concept of a peaceful and tolerant religion? Those people in Lal Masjid were not trying to bastardize your religion, they were true Mulims into whose souls the Koran had descended. Let me quote to you from your Koran some verses that had entered the hearts of the Lal Masjid 'martyrs'.

060.004 YUSUFALI: There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"…

Now these co-religionists of yours felt that people like you who listened to music, went to see Bollywood movies, or sent their daughters to college to be educated and be ogled by macho Punjabi boys had made 'them clear of you and enmity and eternal hatred' had arisen between you and them.

Another interesting verse is: 002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

The Lal Masjid brothers probably had this verse engraved in their hearts. They obviously considered the majority of Pakistanis to be kafirs for their decadent ways and took up Allah's prescription to end kufar in their 'Pak' land.

The Mullahs of Lal Masjid knew what was best for them and their 'Pak' land, for the Koran informs them: 009.041 Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

>>There are still many schools that havent been targetted. The govt. and NGOs are re-building all the schools that have been bombed. But the real problem is –even with schools, parents are too scared to send their children. The taleban are openly threatening people with attacks if they send their kids to school. It's sick ---but this is what is happening in Swat.<<

This applies to Kashmir too. As you say: It's sick ---but this is what is happening in Kashmir.

>>Taleban is HATED in Swat and Bajaur ---that is the truth. But people are too scared to rise up against them. The army has done a good job cleaning the areas.<<

To paraphrase your statement: The militants are HATED in Kashmir --- that is the truth. But people are too scared to rise up against them. The army has done a good job of cleaning the area.

>>????

Uhhhhhhh........the hindu extremists who thrashed those girls up in Mangalore said they will do the same thing on Valentines Day if they see women acting in impure manner.<<

The Hindu mobs thrashed those poor girls and now the Ram Sene is being thrashed all over the media and goons have been charged and will be tried soon.

Cut to the land of the pure, Pakistan, or any Islamistan, and girls who are found with a boyfriend are likely to have their throats slit and buried secretly with the police joining in the cover up. Honour killings are honourable in your honoured land of the pure. Here is a 'heart-warming' report on one such killing:

"Three teenage girls have been buried alive by their tribe in a remote part of Pakistan to punish them for attempting to choose their own husbands, in an "honour" killing case.

After news of the deaths emerged, male politicians from their province, Baluchistan, defended the killings in parliament, claiming the practice was part of "our tribal custom".

The girls, thought to have been aged between 16 and 18, were kidnapped by a group of men from their Umrani tribe.

They were driven to a rural area and then injured by being shot. Then, while still alive, they were dragged bleeding to a pit, where they were covered with earth and stones, according to the findings of Human Rights Watch, the international campaigning group. Officials, speaking off the record, confirmed the killings.

However, six weeks after the deaths, no one has been arrested, amid claims of a cover-up. According to several accounts, Baluchistan government vehicles were used to abduct the girls, and the killing was overseen by a tribal chief who is the brother of a provincial minister from the ruling Pakistan People's party. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/01/pakistan

How many times do you want me multiply such cases with reports from other Islamistans?

>>My goodness, unbelievable!!! This is your "incredible india"??? This is very alarming news. Some are calling it the "talibanization" of brahmin-run hindustan!!!<<

You can find similar stories from Brahmin-run Hindustan but the difference is that such criminals are hunted down and jailed in accordance with the law.

>>You can ask any Pakistani and he/she will tell you that we look to our Christian citizens as equals.<<

This is great news, General, you seem to have forgotten the hate lessons you learned in school. But how many Pakistanis would have internalized the hate lessons drummed into them from early childhood. Read this report by an NGO in Pakistan:

The subtle Subversion: A report on Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan

Sustainable Development Policy Institute

#3, UN Boulevard, Diplomatic Enclave I, Islamabad

Mailing Address: PO Box 2342, Islamabad, Pakistan

Telephone: ++(92-51) 2278134, 2278136, 2270674-6

Fax:++(92-51) 2278135

URL: www.sdpi.org e-mail: main@sdpi.org

SDPI is an independent, non-profit research institute on sustainable development

Here are some extracts from it:

"Four themes emerge most strongly as constituting the bulk of the curricula and textbooks of

the three compulsory subjects.

1. that Pakistan is for Muslims alone;

2. that Islamic teachings, including a compulsory reading and memorization of Qur'an,are to be included in all the subjects, hence to be forcibly taught to all the students,

whatever their faith,;

3. that Ideology of Pakistan is to be internalized as faith, and that hate be created againstHindus and India; and

4. students are to be urged to take the path of Jehad and Shahadat. (Page 11)

Curriculum documents state the following as the specific learning objectives:

[The child should be able to] understand the Hindu and Muslim differences andthe resultant need for Pakistan98

Develop understanding of the Hindu Muslim Differences and need for Pakistan99 (Page 20)

Hindu-Muslim Differences in Culture, .. India's evil designs against Pakistan (the

three wars with India)100

Identify the events in relation to Hindu-Muslim differences, which laid the

foundations for Pakistan101

The textbooks then respond in the following way to the above curriculum instructions:

Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.102

The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not

respect women...103

……. [A story "The Enemy Pilot", about a captured Indian pilot, presumably of Hindu

faith] He had only been taught never to have pity on Muslims, to always bother

the neighbouring Muslims, to weaken them to the extent that they forget about

freedom, and that it is better to finish off the enemy. He remembered that the

Hindus tried to please their Devi Kali by slaughtering innocent people of other faiths at her feet; that they regarded everybody else as untouchables. He knew that his country India had attacked Pakistan in the dead of the night to bleed Pakistani Muslims and to dominate the entire Subcontinent.107

The Hindus who have always been opportunists cooperated with the English.108

…but Hindus very cunningly succeeded in making the British believe that the

Muslims were solely responsible for the [1857] rebellion (Page 21)

>>The fundamentalists who preach hatred in these underground 'madrassas' are a real issue and real liability for us. All the worlds curses on them for their intolerance. <<

General read the entire report (RAW funded no doubt!) and you will realize the aboveground government schools are doing a better job of preaching hatred and jihad than the underground madrassas.

>>The report you posted mentioned that the men were raping/threatening to rape these girls.....so obviously this has NOTHING to do with Islam ---as Islam asks the followers to refrain from sexual contact outside of wedlock –and denounces rape (zeenat).<<

Now the statement I have underlined is really interesting. (I hope you meant zina. Zeenat was a popular Bollywood Muslim actress of yesteryears).

You claim that Islam allows sexual relations only within wedlock and denounces rape. This holy Islamic wedlock also allows for marrying and allowing sex with a nine-year-old girl remember (Ayesha, the prophet's favourite child wife?). Most civilized countries will have the parents of the girl and the man behind bars in double quick time.

And how about this verse: 070.029-30 070.029 YUSUFALI: And those who guard their chastity, Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,

This verse gives Muslims the freedom to sleep with any slave-girl they possess whether the poor girl wishes it or not.

Or this one: 33:50: "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..."

This verse is giving the prophet license to take any slave girl he got as booty. He did take several comely slave girls after he had destroyed their families and tribes. Rehana, Safia, and Juwairiya come to mind.

>>At the same time, i denounce hindu extremists in Orissa state of india........where hindu right-wing extremists were guilty of forcing christians to convert to hinduism. Houses and villages were destroyed and churches were burned to ashes.<<

General, your condemnation is as nothing compared to the condemnation our politicians, our media and the people on the streets of the country are doing even several weeks after the incident. And the people of India expect and want the rest of the world, including Pakistanis, to condemn such incidents, however minor they maybe, in our country and stand behind us in our fight against such Talibanis.

>>My goodness, unbelievable!!! This is your "incredible india"??? Whats going on?<<

Having read some of those links I also thought, 'my goodness' the country is on the verge of a civil war, and it is time to look for safety in 'peaceful' neighbours like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal or Sri Lanka. A quick look at what is happening in these places decided me against it.

I also belong to a minority in the country. I have traveled over the country and never once felt threatened, except when I read the news or the internet. I live in a country where elections and other democratic practices have now been internalized down to the village level. I know that free and fair elections (with a few dishonourable exceptions) will be held with clockwork precision as required by the constitution. And our governments change without bloodshed.

The list of terrorist organizations in Kerala really had me rolling on the floor.

All Kerala Nair Force

All karela Tiger force for the liberation of Thiruvananthapuram

Malappuram Striking Force

Liberation force for the liberaytion of Allappuzha

Kaduthurutyhy wing for the liberation of Marthomas(Headed by Thommachan Kuttipparambil)

All Karela Kakkan force for the liberation of Kakkan areas

You have failed to list the really dangerous organizations like SIMI, National Democratic Front, and a few others who are not like the paper tigers you have named.

The All Kerala Nair Force caught my eye. A member of the community of Nairs, Mr. Madhavan Nair, heads our space programme which recently placed a satellite around the moon. Do you think he was planning to use the moon as a staging ground to fight for Nair rights??

With all the Brahmin Bhindians conspiring to target Christians and Muslims how do you explain the fact that the most powerful person in the country is an Italian Catholic woman. Also have you wondered how these religion-minded conspirators could stomach a practicing Christian, A. K Antony, as the defence minister of the nation.

While you are at it you may also start wondering how this Brahmin-infested nation could throw up several Muslim presidents, among them probably the most loved of all Presidents, Abdul Kalam. How does a country oppressing the minorities throw up a tennis grand slam winning Muslim girl. Or world class musicians like A. R. Rehman, Zakir Hussain and I don't have to tell you about the country-wide admiration for our Muslim Bollywood stars. This is also the country where the remnants of the Muslim League, accused of partitioning the country, are given a role in the governance of the nation. Our minister of state for foreign affairs is a member of the Muslim League. The same party also has been part of the government of Kerala on several occasions.

I can tell you why these things happen in India and my explanation is sure to give you great pleasure. It is a very deep rooted Brahmin-zionist conspiracy to show up India as a nation where minorities are respected as equal citizens of the country as against what is happening in Pakistan where only Muslims are allowed to hold the top political posts, or where the minorities are only second class citizens. Pakistanis, I am sure have the intelligence to realize that things are not really as they seem in India and the truth is quite different. After all every Pakistani knows that 9/11 was really a Zionist plot to defame Muslims just as they know that the Mumbai massacre was a Brahmin-RAW plot to tarnish ISI and Pakistan.

Here is another tid-bit I found on the net about your country. The following is what your prime minister had to swear:

I, Yousuf Raza Gilani, do swear solemnly that l am a Muslim and believe in the Unity and Oneness of Almighty Allah, the Books of Allah, the Holy Quran being the last of them, the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the last of the Prophets and that there can be no Prophet after him, the Day of Judgment, and all the requirements and teachings of the Holy Quran and Sunnah:

Now can a Christian or Hindu in your country take this oath? Will they be allowed to swear by the 'corrupt' Bible or the Ramayana with its human and monkey gods. Your prime minister also has to believe in all the requirements of the Koran and Sunnah. The Koran contains the following verse: 009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Your present prime minister can claim the verse is contextual and it is now redundant if he is one of those moderate Muslims. But what if the next one insists on following the letter and spirit of the Koran (the spirit of this verse is found in the first words 'Fight those who…' i.e. it has relevance for all time)? He will, like that pious Muslim, Aurangezeb, reimpose jizia on Christians and convert the Hindus as required by this verse.

>>Some moved to india and some willingly converted. You also have to understand that in 1947 Pakistan's general population was MUCH smaller than it is today. So obviously over time the numbers will change one way or the other –especially if the Muslims are having more children than the hindus are..These numbers I dont know.<<

Same goes for India. Our population was also much smaller in 1947. But our Muslim population has outpaced the Hindu growth rate. This damages your perception that Muslims are under siege here does it not? Check the internet to know about how our Muslim population has grown. Your Hindu population on the other hand has reduced drastically from about 23% to less than 5% today.

>>Regardless, blame our poor sense of family-planning.<<

You think Hindus have a great sense of family planning? Why do you think there nearly a billion of us?

>>Our former leader, Field Marshall Ayub Khan, used to joke with the people that if we dont do something about controlling our population growth, "Pakistanis will begin to eat other Pakistanis"<<

The Field Marshal was prophetic. You are beginning to 'eat' each other now aren't you?

LoL.

>>That is ridiculous. Slavery is forbidden in Islam –whether being a slave or imposing others to be sub-serviant. This is all just propaganda.<<

Which Islam are you talking about, my dear General? The Islam that says you can take booty which includes women and children as slaves? 33:50, 70:30 etc

There can be no more ringing endorsement of slavery than this one from an Islamic scholar from the centre of Islam:

Saudi sheik: 'Slavery is a part of Islam'
Leading government cleric, author of country's religious curriculum
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518

A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country's religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.

"Slavery is a part of Islam," says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA.

In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam."

His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.

Al Fawzan – a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia's highest religious body – says Muslims who contend Islam is against slavery "are ignorant, not scholars."

"They are merely writers," he said, according to SIA. "Whoever says such things is an infidel." ……

General, you are an infidel. The Islamic scholar said it, not I.

Also read http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2003/11/saudi-religious-leader-calls-for-slaverys.html

Here are the Al Azhar scholars on slavery:

The Scholars of al-Azhar in Egypt

In his book, "You Ask and Islam Answers", Dr. 'Abdul-Latif Mushtahari, the general supervisor and director of homiletics and guidance at the Azhar University, says (pp. 51,52),

"Islam does not prohibit slavery but retains it for two reasons. The first reason is war (whether it is a civil war or a foreign war in which the captive is either killed or enslaved) provided that the war is not between Muslims against each other - it is not acceptable to enslave the violators, or the offenders, if they are Muslims. Only non-Muslim captives may be enslaved or killed. The second reason is the sexual propagation of slaves which would generate more slaves for their owner."

The text is plain that all prisoners of war must either be killed or become slaves. The ancient scholars are in full agreement over this issue, such as Ibn Timiyya, Ibn Hisham, Malik etc. Ibn Timiyya says (Vol. 32, p. 89),

"The root of the beginning of slavery is prisoners of war; the bounties have become lawful to the nation of Muhammad."

Then (Vol. 31, p. 380), he indicates clearly and without shame,

"Slavery is justified because of the war itself; however, it is not permissible to enslave a free Muslim. It is lawful to kill the infidel or to enslave him, and it also makes it lawful to take his offspring into captivity.

……….

The Caliphs across the ages followed Muhammad's footsteps and enslaved (by hundreds and thousands) men and women who were captured in wars. Many of them were Persians and Byzantines. All the Islamic Chroniclers without exception have recorded these facts. The way Arab Muslims invaded Africa and killed and enslaved Africans is a well-known, historical fact……….

http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv5.html

This article is from and anti-Muslim site. But I invite you to show that the gentlemen referred to did not say or write any such defence of Islamic slavery.

To keep this comment on slaves and Islam short, I will not quote from the hadith. There are many hadith which confirm that Islam never had any problems with slavery.

>>Ahh....and while we are on the subject of "hindu bonded labour" ---why dont you explain this to me? In your own beloved caste-society promoting hindustan!!!<<

Our chief justice is a low caste. You think he could be promoting a caste-society in his various judgments?

>>Even your media sometimes classifies politicians/personalities as belonging to 'elite' or 'backwards' castes! What is this nonsense?<<

It is the same nonsense as your religion classifying human beings as Muslims and kafirs. Or the Koran telling Muslims that women are a degree below men: 002.228 YUSUFALI: …….. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

>>ever heard this quote:

"If a man of inferior caste tries to sit down on the same seat as a man of superior caste, he should be branded on the hip and banished, or have his buttocks cut off." -- Manusmrti 8:281.<<

Ouch. That could be painful. You can quote these ancient laws as much as you like and no Hindu will tell you that it is taken out context or misunderstood or mistranslated (except the RSS, VHP, Ram Sene types). The modern Hindu will tell you that they were laws that deserved to be consigned to the dustbin of history. And that is exactly what we have done. Point to anything in our constitution that smacks of Manusmriti. We know what to do with outdated laws and scriptures. Now as a Muslim will you denounce these laws set down by the Koran like chopping a thief's hands for stealing even a 'dirham' worth of something?

Will you unequivocally state that the Koranic laws allowing the taking and keeping of slaves is unworthy of a merciful creator. Or the keeping of any number of slave girls as concubines even against their will? General do you want me quote the verses that allow such horrible practices?

>>We are not the bearded whackos that they always show on CNN or BBC. <<

And are we trishul-weilding saffron-robed whackos that you see on your TVs?

>>We are much more moderate and open-minded than other more conservative societies (like the Saudis). Lately I havent even heard of harassment against Ahmedeyyas –because Pakistanis know who the real 'enemies' of Pakistan are.<<

And what about Hindus and Buddhists? We welcomed the Zorastrians who escaped from persecustion in Iran. We welcomed Jews who were driven out of Palestine. We have almost any religion that you can name and the government does not discriminate against anyone. The only discrimination is by private individuals and some fundamentalist groupings. We have Ahmadias too but we don't have a law which calls them non-mulsims.

Regards Plato

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