ok, several points

Submitted by bayezid (Bangladesh), Jan 5, 2009 at 05:36

>> It's just words and stories. The true message is realisation."

words and stories are ideas. ideas are what stimulate the mind and tempers it with vision. realization requires indication to truth and the quran indicates nothing but the truth.

>>

The Self cannot be deluded. One's mind can be deluded. You don't 'obey' peace - you experience it. You act consciously from an awareness of peace."

and that is why our 'selves' hearken to ALLAH once their minds have been freed from the delusions experienced by their finite 'selves.'

in order to experience peace the TRUTH must be realized and must be devoted to. without that, peace is impossible.

>> In Europe , they would hold that God is a little more generous and allows those shrines to be visited by people who were created free and whose essential true nature is freedom itself."

unfortunately for europe, theyve never heard of the phrase 'a free man is like a boat without a sail.' and what is a boat without a sail?

we may have been created free but this freedom is there for a purpose. freedom allows us to see the choices we have but it is not an end in itself. it requires us to choose.without choices freedom i obsolete. once a apth is chosen, freedom is partly diminished. because then starts commitment.

>>

There's talk and there's actions. We can agree that many actions in many places by some Muslims have given a very bad impression to the vast majority of non-Muslims. Indeed some of the verses inthe Koran can be interpreted by Muslims (and non-Muslms) to encourage the slaughter or mistreatment of non-Muslims."

and the action of yours is procrastination. if only you would have read the quran instead of following peoples talk and action, you wouldve noticed tht war agaist non muslims is conditional upon thir treatment of islam and muslims. in other words, retaliation is the only form of aggression islam recognizes.

so again, religion is hardly toblame. only people are.

>>

The Israelis have done nothing to him or to Iran other than bombing the crap out of their nuclear facilities a while ago. And in retrospect - they did it with good reason - given the sentiments he and others have expressed. Nowadays Iran has and contniues to supply arms to Hezbollah and other characters."

the muslims are kin. it is the duty according to ALLAH and HIS prophet that if one muslim people are under attack, other muslims regardless from where they are must come to their aid. ahmedinkad was only looking after his kin.

>>

Hamas, up until Israel's recent actions, were the ones controlling the GazaStrip. They were policing it and also the ones sending the rockets into nearby Israel. Hamas was well armed and willing and able to carry out attacks on Israel. They did. Naturally enough the Israeli military struck back - this time to a degree that Hamas were not expecting. Not all Palestinians support Hamas - but enough did to get them over the line in their last elections."

like i said, hamas is a decoy and its manifesto and organization and its tactics are far from being islamic. the israei intelligence mossad has a reputation for training renegade cells from different countries including the seccessionist tamil tigers of sri lanka. so obviously there is a connection between hamas and israel - it could very well be its brainchild.

because hamas is always the scapegoat the israelis 'blame' to further their interests in palestine.

>> It would be beyond difficult for you or indeed Bangladesh to do that - but hypothetically speaking - if Bangladesh could prove some historical connection to occupation of Australia in the last few thousand years - I'm sure some concessions could be made. We've done just this for the Aboriginals."

only if there were any legitimate claims. where are those of the jews? their calims were based on their scripture so beyond that there is no legitimate claim. GOD gave them land, but GOD also later deprived them of this land becasue they broke the covenmant. simple. tht fact is alos mentioned in their scripture

so the recent claims of the zionist to occupy palestine is a fraudulent attempt .

>> I think we're both big enough to accept the fact that we can expect the Israelis are not going to vacate Israel at the whim of the Palestinians, Hezbollah, Syrians or anybody else for that matter."

then lets also get a littl bigger and accept the fact that the palestinians will never give up struggling for palestine either. just because there seems to appear no resolution over the horizon does not mean the only way out is to give up. im curious, why did you not suggest the same thing for the israelis by the way?

the principle here is what matters. so if you are sour about the palestinians not losing their dignity and integrity along with their land, youll have to find some way to give yourelf some solace.

maybe youll start talking about kashmir next time.

>> There were Muslim Palestinians, Christian Palestinians - and before 1960 - Jewish Palestinians.
I think we both know this is not about land - it is about ideology. Muslim Palestinains and Jews are at each other's throats.many Muslims would like nothing better than for Jews to be exterminated and all of Israel to be a nother Muslim country. That's the bottom line."

the muslims and jews living in palestine had no problems at all. they were good neighbours. the jews that lived their back then were the real orthodox jews and they were happy to live as a minority. the zionists are the problem here, not jews as a religious group. so i afraid you have your history wrong.

the members of the orthodox jewish party natuei karta openly admits that jews were never a problem in palestine. not until the european jews cme over. the zionists. the zionists disregard the jewish laws themselves and mistreat their own orthodox jews. so its not just muslims having a bone to pick with zionists, but jews themselves.

>> why assume I feel attached to the vast deserts of Australia? They were there 20 million years ago, will be there a million years hence. Why should I get attached to them?"

its a good thing your not . mybe you could persuade your gvernemt to give refuge to the israeli zionists after they get kicked out of palestine there. one desert country, to another desert countr. itll almost be like as ifthey never left israel.

>>

Attachment to land is not a genetic thing. It is an emotional thing inculcated into the minds of the
members of the culture. I guarantee you could find many Palestinians who are not at all attached to Palestine or its culture (or lack thereof) and would much prefer to be living in Colorado for example. I guarantee many Palestinians would leave Palestine given the choice - whether Israel existed or not. Would you rather live in Palestine or the Ukraine for example? I know where I'd go.

again, its a matter of principle. the innocent do not comply to the wishes of the guilty.

>> Slavery is a very outdated concept - at least in the West and several other countries."

to the INFINITE (ALLAH) , the finite is only happy to be a slave. when your ancestors were busy tryingto enslave man to man, musims were already slaves only to ALLAH .

the west may have come a long way, but it has a longer way to go. so it seems.

>>What exactly did 'they' do? Which particular ones? There are Jews all over the world right now - what particular things are they doing wrong - that have not been detected by and in the general populations they live amongst?

umm lets see here. associating partners with god and thus going against the spirit of true worship itself. in other words, they were guilty of idolatry. thye caused mischief in the land and did a lot of injustice to people around them. and lets not forget usury. or charging the interest for loaning money. something ALLAH hates.

they did these in not just one instance. every time ALLAH delivered them from HIS punishment they did it again. and again. in short, they did not obey ALLAH.

>> Where is 'God' and 'peace' - if not already inside you? So you are 'submitting' to nothing outside yourself really. You are just recognising what is already there and giving yourself the chance to be who you really are."

there cannot be devotion to god if one does not obey god ! common sense. its easy for anybody to clai anythng, but proving it and acting upon ones comitment and faith is another thing. how do you submit if you do not obey the one you are submitting to?

>>

Good - but many of the more devoted Muslims would disagree. If they had access to a magic button that could remove all Jews from the world - many, many Muslims would press that button."

so now you have yet anoher reason to read the quran and sunnah to know islam than from what you see around you.

>> Life itself. And after a certain level of complexity - consciousness."

complex programs are for complex beings such as ourselves. we feel the need to follow rules. codes. since there are laws that need to be abided by. we did not create ourselves orthis world. HE did. so its only natural to follow HIS rules.

the complexity of the human does not mean its free from law.

>> Human beings can be programmed by others. But then there is meta-programming of the self - by the self. That is not really a 'program'."

most of our lives we dont have a control over our 'self'. in fact we need elaborate methiods and ways to be aligned with it this fact alone shows the self is not ours per se. it belongs thus to ALLAH. and as the self is under HIS command, the laws that condition us must be from HIM too.

>> I have no idea what 'Allah' tells you - but certainly that essence is inside you. It is Life itself. The 'throne' is inside you and not what you think it is."

no offence, but i think you are talking to someone about the transcendence of ALLAH who could actually teach you a few things about it. and this person has been trained by islam

im concerned with the transcendence of god. god is reality. the reason for everything.

now the issue is to hve a relation established with god. who knows better how to communicate with god than god hmse;f? certainly not us. for this reason he sent down the book. instructions. ways. clear. nothing left to philosophize over or contemplate upon, but clear words telling us how to lead our lives in accordance to his will. ALLAH's will.

so as you can see, i hold ALLAH in due importance for which i cant value my ego more than it deserves. so i cant be that arrogant to say that the essence is inside me. the essence is infinite. and life is an expression of that essence. and not the essence itself. so if ur asking me to look at an essence that does not help me transcend beyond myself, that essence is a farce.

>>

It's not by the will of the truth. The more you realize, the more you realize that unconscious aspects of your makeup keep you from experiencing life properly. So you do not do them. Uncosnciousness leads to self harm. Once you've woken up - you stay awake."

so where is ur unity? unity is peace. when you know all things belong to HIM. without this knowledge or without seeing this fact, one never achieves anything but confusion. and since ALLAH in his unity is absolute only HE has the ability to free the person he so chooses to. kowingthis fact makes the believer who loves ALLAH happy. since it tells him that nothing is independent of HIM.

>>

Self-praise is a human thing."

self praise is a human vice. they do it when they know they shouldnt. wise people knowingthe self will never praise it but the CREATOR of the self instead.

and who better to praise HIMSELF than the creator HIMSELF.

>>

Maybe they don't know any better. Having rules and regulations leads to the trap that following those rules
and regulations will get you where you need to go."

rest assured , the likes of us who created nothing and own nothing but ourselves are owned and live in a universe not made by us, who are we to think we will reach salvation by our own machinations?do we know better than the one WHO create us and willed us into existence in the first place?

and the idea of god is you can trust him. another reason why he is god. so there is no basis for the thought that it is a trap. and as insignificant as we were, a trap would be hardly necessary to snare us.

>>

If I have a car - and really need to travel - I can learn all the rules - but if there is no gasoline in the car
and I really don't know how to drive because no one has shown me how to and I couldn't figure it out for myself - what's the point?"

ALLAH looks at our efforts. and the intentions behind them. regardless of our result. and funny thing is, this knowledge is part of the dogma. so perhaps you had encounters with inferior forms of dogmas in the past ?

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