why ask someone else when you are the person in question

Submitted by syed bayezid (Bangladesh), Dec 31, 2008 at 11:27

>>

Your point is not clear. Do you mean that 'infidels' use logic and reason against fantasy and Muslim requests for suspension of disbelief ? (or more accurately, suspension of belief in rationality?)
Fantasy and imagination have their place - but are not good substitutes for calm rationality when we make sense of our world."

infidels dont see the thin line betwen so called fantasy, and reality. because the infidel arrogantly asumes that the REALITY has nothing to offer save for what seems possible to the infidels infinitesmally small mind. the muslims know it is unwise to declare things in infinity with finite minds. muslims do much better. thank you.

>>

That is not at all what I said . I explained that the builders of Stonehenge used it as both a lunar calendar and to determine the oprbit of the year when the sun is at its winter solstice - which was an important point for people living in harsh European winters as it signiifed the return of warmth and light - and therefore food. At no time did I indicate that Stonehenge was designed to indicate the extremely slow orbit of the Sun around the galactic centre in the Sagittarius constellation. You have misrepresented what I said - and are creating arguments against that.

A 'red herring' again."

oh so maybe if you did not use the stonehenge as a prehistoric equal to modern sceintific tools, we would understand you much better. wouldnt we ?

hahah you and your red herrings.

>> But surprisingly, given the great clues in the Koran, and the wonderfully clear desert skies the arab scientists never discovered the Sun's slow rotation around the galactic centre in the 1400 years before the discovery by Infidels of fact that the sun is in orbit around the rim of the Milky Way.
Why is that?
why didn't they discover it and announce it to the world? They had 1400 years to do so - and 400 of those years they had access to telescopes invented by Infidels living around the Mediterranean and in Europe. The reason is perfectly clear - because the totally ambiguous and vague 'proof' offered by Mr. Bayezid - was ONLY offered as 'proof' - AFTER THE FACT of the discovery.

regardless of how clear the sky may be, it is impossible to detect the suns slow orbit with the rest of the solr system around it. with clear skies you get to see the sun and moon and distant stars. one is not able to determine the current displacemnt of the solar system . so i see how you deserve your namesake. you have suggested that a clear sky would be able to indicate signs of the solar apex if i am correct. such a feat was only possible with highly magnifiable telescopes viewing different planets of the solar system in relation to the nearness of stars and galactic alignments.

the arabs did declare this when europe was in the dredges of history. its just that many did not agree. many lke you, were skeptics. they stated this fact that the sun also moved like other planets and the chief source for their claim is the quran. they were right . something the infidels discovered much later using inventions and methods developed by the arabs.

>> Google's great isn't it?"

indeed. no reason to be resentful.

>> Yes, they 'claim' that. How many do you and the Koran claim?"

the quran does not have to claim that. it is not a book teaching yo science. it is a book telling you of signs. signs we discovered much later to express the glory of ALLAH. so again, ALLAH is confident of our common sense that HE has gifted us. well almost to all of us that is. its not important to know how many orbits the sun completed when we know for a fact now that the sun moves in orbits.

>> The real foolhardy claim was for you to suggest that I even thought the Druids were measuring the procession of the Sun around the galactic centre."

well, seeing the way you reason, i could not help but at least entertain the thought.

>> --sura 14, verse 33:
"For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."

"It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)"

"And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38)"

"these ayahs clearly show the movement of the sun. the originl arabic language further elucidates this matter as one reads these verses from the noble quran."

Remember my prediction above - "I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the unknown passage is probably ambiguous and may be open to several interpretations."
These 'ayahs' do not clearly make the points you say they make. They are totally ambiguous and open to interpretation.
As expected - you have provided no proof. The first passage you present simply means the Sun's apparent course as seen from the earth.
If it does not mean that obvious fact - why would it in one sentence be vaguely referring to a concept the arabs did not have at all?
Is it in the very same sentence referring to the Moon's motion around the galactic centre as well?
Or is it expecting the arabs to know that by referring to the Sun it was referring to the Sun's path around the galactic centre - but two words later, when referring to the Moon - it was only referring to the Moon's movement around the earth?"

it is really easy to understand. even if you dont have a name for the path of the sun, it is clearly suggested that the sun, like the moon, pursues a course.

"It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33)"

sura 14, verse 33:
"For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses. And for you He subjected the night and the day."

the word used for movement is 'sabaha'. sabaha means moving in a pattern in an orderly way. it means the sun is moving on its own accord along a set path. and the word sphere is clearly mentioned. meaning that th sun move in a circular way. with all due respect, the ancient people did not know that the sun moved in a circle.

so translating the whole ayah to english hides many of these deeper facts. to appreciate these ayahs fully, one must understand arabic as a language. the only thing that seems ambiguous here is therefore the english language in translating the arbic ayahs.

>> Why would the Koran be talking about the sun going around the galactic centre - and then mention that we have night and day in the VERY NEXT sentence? "
It is perfectly obvious it is talking about the apparent course of the sun and moon as seen from Earth and that because of this motion the earth is subjected to light and dark periods.
You do not have the ability to make a plausible case about why it is talking about the travel of the sun around the galactic centre ( a concept the arabs did not have) - and then speaks of night and day.

not really. as i have said earlier, english undermines the vocabulary of arabic. when ALLAH mentions each one moving in spheres it can also mean each one moving in orbits. that line alone is revealing the fact that the sun too has an orbit. it is not this that ALLAH is saying the sun and moon moves. ALLAH says they moved in orbits. so it is not dependant on HIS mentioning day and night. by day and night ALLAH referred to the earths rotation, and not the suns.

>> Which resting place is that - where it appears to set on the western horizon - which would be an understandable poetic metaphor and not a scientific truth? Or the resting place it DOES NOT have - as it is in continuous orbit around the galactic centre?
BTW In other parts of the Koran the sun's resting place was a muddy marsh."

sorry to see your apparent victory so short lived. by resting place ALLAH means the return of the sun to its original axis after completing a cycle. the othjer planets and moons are connected to the sun via gravity. this connection is responsible for the rotaion and revolution of the planets. but the sun moves on its own. meaning its motion is hardly dependant on any other body. so by resting place it means a return to that critical position which is necessary for the proper functioning of the solar system.

umm it isnt mentioned anywhere else in the quran about a muddy marsh being the suns resing place. you probably muddled up your info with some ancient european literature.

>>

>> You have EAs I pointed out - using your logic - by keeping this 'common knowledge ' for the Infidels to discover 1400 years later, 'Allah' once again subjects the arabs to embarrassment - as they had (in your mind) the 'facts' staring at them in the Koran and totally failed to see it!

ALLAH exalts the arabs here with knowledge never before known. hardly an embarassing situation. if they had failed to see what exactly it means they were only human. it only means ALLAH has knowledge of things fully and we dont.

>>You have European ancestors? Lucky you. They only became ungrateful when they realised what a crock Islam was.

temper, temper. i wish i had european ancestors, that way i wouldve inquired on the nature of their ngratefulness: was it a genetic trait or merely a stupid mistake ?

>> See the points I've made previously. The Koran definitely does not refer to the sun's slow trip around the galactic center. You have become boggled by the Koran.

lol you have not made any points at all. the quran states clealry about the sun moving in a spherical path. no one knew about the movement of the sun in a spherical path. the spherical path of the sun can only mean the solar apex discovered recently. so yes the quran was definitely talking aboout the apex. again, a lack of common sense on your part.

ALLAH keeps on saying that the quran is for those who contemplate, who understand. i guess HE wasnt talking abiout you. alho HE knows best.

>>

So lucid even the arabs missed the point! "

the idea isnt to glorify arabs or any group of people here. just ALLAH. its ALLAH revealing previously unknown info to mankind. the arabs could not expect that since they dint know much about anything. the quran guided them to knowledge.

>> In those three 'ayahs'? You jest sir."

i hardly do. ALLAH relates complex things in simple sentences. what is 'jestworthy'here is our inability to say so much in so little. if you are laughing at your own condition, i must say i truly understand.

>>

."........and little does he realize tht if ALLAH indeed used words like solar apex and trajectory of the sun, the people would be more confused than enlightened."
Actually, I wish those words WERE used. It's a little less confusing than 4,000 horns on a gigantic cow, standing on a fish swimming in jelly, standing on a gigantic 'farista', whatever you imagine that is."

>> no, sir, it is you indeed responsible for the jesting. people 1400 years back would actually understand those terminologies ? if you think in the positive, i suppose you would not shirk from asking a 6 year old child whether his pituitary gland was functioing properly or not. truly hillarious.

now judging by the time those people lived in, i think a metaphorical description of the planets centripetal and centrifugal and gravitational forces were more appropriate than an outright mentioning of scientific terms coined recently.

>> Well, the word 'apex' as you might know, is a Greek word. The Greeks invented trigonometry and would indeed have understood the simple concept of 'solar apex' even 2500 years ago.."

a rather hopeful situation presented by our most amusing infidel. the apex the greeks knew had nothing to do with th shape of a sphere. apex means the highest point of something. the solar apex is not really an apex in geometric terms. in the suns case it rougly refers to the greatet length of distance a sun covers.

so no. wrong again. the greeks really wouldnt know about it.

>> if you really had presented some intelligent arguments - then he Grand Infidel would consider them. All you've really done is embarass yourself."

an infidel means a veiler of truth. an irrational person. and in your case, a grand one. so an irrational person thinks im embarassing. yeah i got plenty to worry about . lol.

>> Garbage. How little you know of European history. Cordoba university was prominent in its region around the year 1200. There were many centres of learning in bothg western and eastern Europe
during the Middle Ages. Italy, France, Croatia, Poland, Bohemia, Germany, European Russia."

the grand veiler of truth at his reality defying best !!! no one denies that the greatest centter of learning known to the world in the 1200s was muslim spain ! people practically made pilgrimages there. from all over the world they came to learn. where ? in spain. in european spain? no islamic spain. islamic spain was responsible for kicking start the renaissance much later. the european renaissance that changed the face of europe. that turned europe from disorganized feudal states to nations.

knowledge of the europeans themselves were transmittd from mslim hands. you would not know about ptolemy and hippocrates and imhotep and god knows who else if knowledge was not preserved. who preserved them? the muslims did.

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