KMAN, we continue

Submitted by Proud Indian (India), Jan 31, 2009 at 08:14

Your comments & mine follow:

I have not said anything that says India as a whole ruthlessly attacks all Christians. The fact that you have a few highly visible public pockets where the Christians can worship freely says nothing of the terrible atrocities committed all over the rest of India. Try traveling outside your own little enclave & around the rest of your country.

Dear KMAN,

As a professional and an avid traveler myself, I have travelled extensively in my country. Infact the few highly visible pockets you say where Christians can worship themselves freely are exactly inverse. Christians worship their faith in majority of India and there are only few pockets where these atrocities take place. So your advice for me to travel out of my enclave has already been implemented!!!

"Entire Christian villages have been wiped out in Orissa and many other places. Rape, slaughter, looting, and burning of homes is very common by raging bands of Hindus up to thousands strong. The Christians try to survive in the jungles & upon returning are faced with either being burned alive or hung if they don't convert back to Hinduism. I will spare you the details of individual cases that would turn your stomach."

Kman, given the nature of our Indian media, and in a bid to project their secularism, even a rap on a minority wrist's for is magnified hundred folds and is shown 24X7 on atleast 20 news channels for weeks after the incident!!! Let me assure you, even our fickle politicians dread our over zealous media!!! Do you really think that if thousands were being wiped out and there were wide scale massacares, our media would let go of the opportunity?? Also the states in which these incidents took place are opposition ruled states.. This doubles the chances that the figures actually could have been blown out of proportion for political gains.

Just for your curiosity, type kandhamal + orrissa + death toll in google and you will come to know.., These figures have been put forth by the Christian councils and also numerous catholic websites. If in totally you want a count then how far in history do you want me to trek?? Every life is precious and ideally there shouldn't have been a single one lost in such mindless incidents.

1) "The Christians of the world have no problem at all with peoples of other religions passing on their beliefs. At the site of the Vatican, no one is attacked for practicing any belief. You would have to search very hard, as I have, all over the planet to find anything even approaching the nature of the virulent nature of attacks practiced commonly against the follwers of Christ. The peaceful "customizing rituals" or "passing out flowers" hardly comes anywhere near the vile and immoral nature that is practiced against Christians. Spreading love is what Christians are about. Who cares how love is exhibited? No, I don't have any problems at all with Indians coming to my country and spreading their beliefs."

You still haven't answered the question what would happen if some fringe hindu radicals decide to open shop in the Vatican city, and degenerate Mother mary's character or discuss jesus's relation to mary Magdalene in a wrong way what would the Christians do?? Let me be more specific :

Lord Krishna was criticized by new life organization as being a womanizer and marrying 16000 women.

The most common subject of mockery is the existence of thousands of gods in Hinduism,

We worship monkeys, snakes, cows dogs which is a subject of ridicule!!!

How about we say the God ( your god ) is the same as our Bramha ( The creator ) Jesus is a manifestation of Vishnu as krishna is !! so technically Christianity is just an offshoot of Hinduism.. I am sure lot of people will actually buy this stuff, If scientology sells so why wouldn't this?? My point is please do not encourage this and hope the Vatican addresses this issue at the earliest!! When the Roman Catholic Church in India itself admits that there are some overzealous evangelists in India who do this sort of gimmick then why do you fail to accept that conversion do happen surreptiously??

"Yes, I am well aware that when grand public events that bring worldwide attention, the Indian government does eveything possible to portray acceptance. The Indian government lies through its teeth about the back country happenings that I mentioned above. The police and military stand by and watch as Hindu mobs rage throughout the countryside. Naturally your press as does ours, too, fail to pass on these little facts. Understand, I don't blame you or those of your people who have no problems with Christians in your city. That is an isolated enclave. The nature of your response shows me that you personally have no tolerance within your heart for those who peacefully pass on the truths of Jesus Christ. Your own hatred seeps through against those who live peacfeully within your country."

WoW.. You mean to say now that the Indian Govt which, thankfully, which is made up by secular parties, lie?? There is only one Hindu party in the country i.e the BJP and it is sitting in the opposition!!! Doesn't it speak the secular nature of India?? I once again say that there are no armed hindu mobs scavenging the countryside for Christian skulls!!!! And may I ask how do you deduce that I have no tolerance for those who peacefully pass on the truths of jesus Christ???

"I have never had a Hindu in my country come to my door or try to publicly try to say anything about Hinduism. If they did, I would respectfully invite into my home as I do people of other faiths where we talk and exchange our thoughts and then peacefully go our way. I have invited people of many beliefs into my home and treated then with utmost respect. We exchange our beliefs and share food and drink and laugh and talk. This is Christianity at work. We pass on the moral integrity, truth, and love that the Christ taught, and pass on the belief that Jesus died to establish his believers everlasting life in paradise. It is pure love at its highest. We don't get angry except when violence is practiced against us. Even that, most Christians will forgive, and they will pray for forgiveness for their opressors. Learning to forgive is an ongoing process that is hard for all of us, and that no other religion practices.

If you want to live next door to me and practice your faith, I will practice the love Christ has taught me and do nothing to make you or your family feel unwelcome. I will share my beliefs and listen to yours."

I find Solace in your first line.. Its self explanatory that hindus dont proselytize!!! You said that if someone did that you would invite him and treat him with utmost respect.. I did the same thing dear KMAN, The doctor who treated my Mom is like a god to me. Majority of the Indians do the same thing!! It's the same here. I am surprised that how do you make up your mind that Hindus and Indians hate Christians and support and indulge in mass massacres, If Christians believe in Forgiveness , we believe in cycle of Karma, if you do good, good things happen , if you do bad, it comes back multifold..Hindus don't resent or hate staying next to Christians or do not resent a new church opening up in their vicinity!!!

"3) "The urban conversions happen because that is where the most desperate of your country live. We help them learn to read and write in their own languages. We help street kids to find love and acceptance. And actually there is much conversion within cities. However, the cities are where most of the police, military, and governmet are at. They arrest Christians on trumped up charges of "forced conversions", whereupon they then allowed to use any torture, beatings, rape, etc. that they wish.

Largely, it depends on the ministry. Some go to the cities and some to the countrysides. I personally have heard for years of millions of conversions within the cities, but then I am allowed to freely look anywhere I want to find news. I don't read but a little of biased news, but avail myself of many sources.

I am not sought out by police forces or attacked for my beliefs. I am not ruthlessly tortured or beaten. The women in my family freely walk the streets. (I think Islam will eventually put an end to this.). Millions of people of all faiths live here peacefully with only extremely rare attacks by individuals. Actually, my nation has become a nation of milk-sops that don't even remember 9/11 or hardly any other Muslim intrusions anywere. Mine is a self-indulgent and indifferent nation with a few million real Christians who quietly do God's work at much expense to themselves in time, money, prayer, and effort.".

I correct your first line as Rural India because that's where the majority of conversions happen!!! Infact I think a lot of missionaries go there precisely because of the abundant poverty / lack of education and desperation which makes a green field from them!! The urban cities are largely educated / well to do and to put it mildy a very bad market to set shop!!! You also make it sound as if India is Taliban where we hound up Christians / Priests and jail them for preaching / practicing Christianity which is not the case!!!

4)"Dissappointed"? Absolutely not. As for you, I see you still resent the "priests" coming by and offering peacefully to share their beleifs. How terrible that missionaries build hospitols and then freely invite those of other faiths to avail themselves of the services. Yes, we pass on our faith to make better lives for the people of India. Repressing a people ( the dalits) because of the accident of birth, is wrong. The Christ opens the door for anyone who wants to love truth and loves the people of every faith and then go the extra step of helping them. If your religion is mistaken, yes we will pass that on. We all suffer for our mistakes.

One or the other has to be wrong, so, yes, we discuss and point out error and pass on truth. If your truth prevails, then someone doesn't get converted. It's that simple. Truth will win out. It isn't "pride of our own religious selves" that we seek to teach. The love we have for Christ , his sacrifice, truth, and integrity for all human beings is what we pass on. We fully admit to being imperfect human beings ourselves, which is far more than many others do. Pride should not enter into it. Sin is something we continually seek to eradicate from ourselves. We fess up to it (including occassional hypocrisy and self pride) and go on to improve ourselves. It is a lifetime process that is immediately evident in converts.

Resent ?? why would I resent , amused is actually the right word here.. When the priest came to me for attending the bible study group, he said it will make me a better person!!! Gods benevolence will be on me and my life would be better!!! I said to my self I earn an honest living, I DO NOT HURT OTHERS!!! There is food on my table every day!!! I have a healthy family, good friends, yes things could have been better but I did not see how converting myself would change things!!! That's how I passed on the offer!!!

"4) I think I have already addressed this belief of yours that you practice "peace" in highly visible pockets of your nations. What does this say of the god? Wouldn't a good and loving god wish that all humans would attain to the after life of paradise? If the Hindu god is the god of truth and power then, he will be the one that prevails in discussion.

The compromise and living peacefully together philosophy is just that - a philosophy that never works in practice. As soon as people of one religion ( with the exception of Christians) begins to win converts, the others start violently striking back. It has a nice ring to it, but never plays out in real life. I have spoken at length of the Muslims and how duplicitous it is, but you and I are discussing our beliefs right now, so I won't waste the time going there.

"Highly Visible" may be misleading, a scar on the forehead is highly visible but a burnt back may not be visible but which is worst??? You are stuck on Highly Visible past rather than the vast majority!!!!! That's the problem..

Your caste system has existed for many centuries and is deeply entrenched. If efforts to rid yourselves of it were going to be successful, it would have happened a long time ago. If you are making the effort, then wonderful! I congratulate you for any honest efforts. The truth is, though, that Chrisitianity is bringing instant results from the God of Christ. The God himself which is in far more evidence brings a plethora of results anywhere Indians ask him for a better life. Do you expect apologies for the God who brings real results and doesn't require us to toss scarce food supplies into our bodies of water where it rots and desecrates the very water you use to drink, cook, and bathe in? The God of Christ doesn't teach that we worship animals while tens of millions starve to death all around them. Do your cattle that mingle in your market places carefully defecate and urinate out of the public food distribution places? Do the flies that are drawn to these public animal toilets not spread diseases? Does it not keep people endlessly hopping to satisfy all of the hundreds of gods?

Hmmm talking caste system.. I will give you an inside news on caste system.. We have chosen that the caste system prevails now.. reason?? It is a way to correct our past atrocities.. We have 55% reservations in all the jobs / educational institutes, there is an Identity certificate issued which opens up medical facilities and govt facilities such as state transport , electricity, water supply at a far lesser cost that those of the so called upper castes. Reality Check!!! We also have Dalit Christians , Backward Christans , Scheduled Tribe Christains who scamper to get the certificate so that the above facilities are provided!!! So what changed for them kman?? Even if they had remained hindus or whatever faith they were previously, they would still have availed the facilities!!! I take your above para as the reason why Indians are unhealthy because of our beliefs that lead to unchecked cattle roaming our roads / tossing food and polluting our rivers!!! Ok so it means that Christian dominated countries don't have any health related disorders because jesus does not require cattle worship or food tossing rituals. I Wonder how Mad Cow Disease spreads in European countries!!! We can say because our religion forbids beef intake our god has protected us from Mad Cow Disease ..

"The Roman Catholics, a religion I don't belive in, do not scour the countryside in vast numbers attacking anyone of any belief. Luther, centuries ago, Luther saw the wrong of Catholicism, and started the Protestant movement that adheres much more faithfully to the teachings of Christ which have never changed regardless of any modern translations that only reflect man's changing dialect. The teachings and their meanings stay the same. That is one of the ways Christianity continually re-directs and corrects itself. God himself through his Holy Spirit does the greater part of the work to re-direct his people back to the truths in his Word. As man always does, he wanders, and God re-directs. Some don't care to listen, so they get radically off course."

See!!!! say Protestants adhere to the true teachings of Christ!! The Protestant Vs Roman Catholics have a bloody past!!!

I don't personally blame people who worship false gods. The accident of birth isn't one that I can claim any credit for, so I don't blame anyone for the god they worship. The problem is being unwilling to put any god up to the tests of truth, moral integrity, and love. This is where people will answer to God at the end time of judgement. But, if you wish to go on practicing any other belief, then by all means do. That is your choice. God has no interest in forcing anyone to buy in to Him. However, your choice to evade Him and his truths will be put before you at the end

Wow.. Koran revisited!!! Muslims also believe that other faiths worship false gods!! Only concession here is you just end by certifying that we worship false gods and you are not interested in forcing your god.. thank god for small mercies!! But what you will certainly do is be opportunistic and feed a man and introduce him to the lords word!! Why cant you accept that Humanity and the urge to help mankind is intrinsic in nature and that can be present in anybody?? Why attribute it to god??

I make no claims to any moral superiority for myself.

You just did the same my friend when you declared that you don't blame people for worshipping false gods!! How modest of you!!!

The God of Jesus Christ found me in my own cess pool of atheism and presented me with truth, love, and his absolute and moral righteousness. He is a God of absolute supenatural power and isn't above displaying it frequently for those who give themselves to Him for their benefit.

Sounds just like Allah to me !!!

"Poverty" isn't used as a tool to "sell" anything. The God of Christianity is free for the taking. It speaks to the God we worship and believe in that he tells us to go tto those who hurt most. From the very beginning of The Old Testament, God told his people to see to the needs of their own widows, orphans, and the "aliens" that pass daily within their midst. He is a God that hurts for the hurting. Where is there a problem here? If you choose not to help your own hurting, why do you put down those who do and do so the most effectively?

If you choose not to go to Latin America or anywhere else, then I guess it speaks to the nature of your god(s) that they have no heart for those who suffer. If you yourself have no heart for those who terribly suffer, then, ok, if that's the "god" you wish to worship, fine. The One God will throw all this up to you at the end. It is very convenient for those in Hindu nations who are in positions of wealth and power that they believe it is because they lived some "good past life". That conveniently exempts them from having to do anything for their poor, starving, uneducated, and repressed, because they "didn't live a good past life". And then they hate those who would help them live better lives.

Wealthy Hindu Nations?? Where are they?? There is not a single Hindu nation in the world!!! Nepal was , but now is a secular nation!!!

"And, by the way, I see you are aware of "Orissa" and what goes on there. I see that the Hindus leaped at the chance to find some lie that "Chrsitians had slain a Hindu leader" even after the communists clearly came out and claimed credit for themselves. Once again, the Hindus buy into "convenience" in instantly believing a lie so they can go out by the thousands and rape, torture, slaughter, burn, loot, etc. So, on the one hand, you claim to be "indulgent" of the Christians in your highly visible community, but inwardly seethe with hatred and justify what goes on in Orissa?"

Just as you bought the lie that thousands are masaccared in India, the same way those who indulged in the massacre bought the lie that their leader !!! The fact is majority of us didn't bought the lie that's why Christians are safe otherwise what would it take to massacre a mere 2 % of India's population?? This precisely I objected to your labeling the term Hindus as murderers

"Truthfully, I have no hatred for the individual Hindus, Muslims, or Buddists. The lie and terrible harm that all the "religions" of these beleivers buy into, is what I most terribly hate. Now, of course, in light of the terrible things these peoples do to loving Christians and those Christians concern for they themselves, yes, that does sometimes challenge my ability to reign in my own anger and sadness.

God never promised to make me perfect. He only demands that I spend my life working diligently to aim that direction. He expects very real results, too, and helps me to do so. Atrocities by Christians are almost non-existent. The Muslims have tried to claim otherwise, but I think we are both aware of what Islam claims all around for all of us. The Quran teaches the permissable practice of lie and signing treaties they have no intention of honoring."

Same here!!! I hope that I have somehow managed to ease your vision

If they both do the "good deed" how will that diminish anything of the combined "goodness" of the deeds?? The only thing that "diminshes" would be the total picture of the deed. I'm talking about ongoing concern for peoples' needs on a daily basis as Christ taught us. He teaches getting right into the dirt, muck, and mire of peoples' needs and living conditions to help them. Some think they can write a check and mumble a few quick prayers that don't have any heart behind them. God will throw this at people who "claim" to be Christians at the end. Good deeds buy nothing.

The One God requires heart felt concern and involvement with those who suffer. It isn't about bragging rights as the Muslims do about their numbers who practice every kind of horror against all the rest of us. It is about HEART. I don't have much respect for those who claim to be Christians and display otherwise. They won't find a place in the after life of paradise despite their hollow, cultural, or fashionable beliefs of convenience or anything else. They're in for one big whopping surprise at judgement.

My feelings exactly!!!! Just change the word Christian up above and change it to hindus

Actually, the behavior and outward exhibition of it is "cowardice" is what I was alluding to. If I gave the wrong impression, I'm sorry, but what else would you call the rape, looting, burning, and torture of helpless Christian victims?

I call them outright heinous and sadistic!!!

I have read the full story of not only Orissa, but the horrors going on all over the country against Christians. That describes the majority of the Indian citizenry. It also, tells me of the absolute lie of those who are in control - the government, the police, the military, and the majority of the Hindus.

My dear KMAN we are again going in circles!!! If those in control were murderous cowards, then why are there only sporadic incidents and why not widescale genocides???

Know this; I admire tremendously your desire to eradicate and change what is going on. You have to take note yourself, that I never brag about about almost anything of my own country or fellow countrymen. My country, as one of the richest and most powerful on earth has sold out to the God who shaped it from its roots. My coutrymen suffered under Britsih rule, also. That as never been in contention. On the other hand, there are a power lot of American atheists who even help on the wordl stage. It speaks to the dying embers of the belief in a God that so richly blessed the godly men who started the U.S. They are oblivious to the entirety of Christ's teachings and commands, but they don't go about in mass numbers doing whatever rage and hate leads them to do. That has never been in contention. It has never been hidden by our book (Bible) either.

God always shapes his people up after many decades ( through prophets) of warnings and explicitly pointing out their wrong. When they ignore him, they get exactly what God promises them - terrible retribution. He then tirelessly remolds them. The U.S. is only beginning to pay for the desecration of God's Word, its self-indulgence, and absolute evils of pornagrapghy, abortion, and inifference to those all over the world who suffer and die. I don't claim any kin-ship to those who buy into superficial Christainity. I try to help them see their slide into sin. God will punish all who deserve it. I don't push "allegiance" to my nation anymore, either.

"We all have a common enemy that is fundamentalism!!! it can be Christian Fundamentalists , hindu radicals or Islamic Jehadis.. Lets deal with the worst for now and i am sure we are capabable enough to put our own houses in order"

I have no confidence in those who want peace in this world being able to counter the forces of evil. Our God speaks of that source of evil many times under his many aliases - Satan, devil, father of all lies, etc. He is very powerful to the extent he has helped strenuously to promote false gods from the beginning of mankind. The extent of evil now in our world has passed the "rewind" or "undo" point. India's enemy, Pakistan is a nuclear power and harbors the roots of the most evil of the Islamic radicals. Radical Islam has infested the entire planet and plays by no rules whatsoever. That can't be fought except by God alone. He has prophesied throughout the Bible of these times. Islam is the "popular" religion because it allows repressed peoples everywhere to express the inevitable frustrations, helplessness, poverty, and death they suffer from the governments and religions that keep them there.

I claim, again no bragging rights for myself or my country. When I see a lie, I call it out whether on the part of any religion or country, or religion. I do care for my mankind. I care for you & wish you could see that God loves any human from anywhere and any belief who fesses up to the Christ's teachings, and their belief in His forgiveness. He doesn't care to keep it carefully guarded within tight little religious communities. He wants all mankind to benefit from what he has paid the biggest price for - our sin.

Wow, its really a long mail, but if I have , even in some fraction succeeded in clearing your perceptions about hindus being murderers and cowards, then I guess it was worth discussing!!! Please don't take this in any other way but do read Bhagwad geeta and let me know!!!

HeartFelt Warm regards,

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".