grand kafir - rebel without a cause

Submitted by bayezid (Bangladesh), Jan 5, 2009 at 08:35

>>

What you are suggesting boils down to saying that only Muslims are capable of abstract thought. This is not worthy of putting forward as an hypotheses. In fac - if more Muslims WERE capable of abstract thought and actually used that ability - they would be able to see themselves as others see them - and act more tolerantly."

actually i was simply trying to show you how disbelievers naively label the complex reality under rational or irrational headings. so before you wish to retort, please follow the little words into their place.

we certainly do not think of you as the best of the contenders to teach us tolerance. ALLAH is enough for us. and HE commands olerance from us. unlike the lip service you provide but retain personal grudges against those ideas that conflict with your worldly view.

>>

Breaking your world up into Muslim and kafir, us and them, the good and the bad. Creating duality where you say only unity really exists. I have not lost patience nor am I 'spewing cliches'. You have a concept about how people who do not share your worldview think and are. The concedpt and the reality do not coincide. You then try to belittle or criticise your own imagnation of these people. You are not criticising the reality. You are dirtying your own mental/emotional nest . That is an analogy, whether it is a cliche is not relevant."

islam is not a world view. it is a way of life based on ALLAH's intention. you dont need religion to find this god, we all know him from our very first moments. if your world view does not allow you to pursue knowledge regarding what god wants from you then it cuts you off from your very basic instinct. to look for meaning.

>> Why do you think using obvious facts to make a point has anything to do with temper? The points made were quite obvious. Muslims have done little in the world to actually improve life for any one other than Muslims themselves - and then only to a limited degree. I can undertsand you gettin offended on this point - because you've bought into the whole Muslim thing 100%. "

again, history is testament to what muslims contributed to the world. you may follow those that shamelessly deny this. one very small example is the arabic numerals mathmeticians use worldwide to write numbers in. and math is considered the language of the universe. it is the arabic number that helps you calculate everything from trajectories of planetary bodies, to measuring oceans to planning hte budget of your economy.

without the arabic astrolabe you really wouldnt have any idea to chart the heavens or map th seas accurately. hospitals are a muslim contribution. a place where god is glorified and free treatemnt gien by learned scholars to the ill and the injured and the dying appeared in societies after islam arrived.

the muslim contribution to cartography and travel sceince is also undeniable. there may have been travellers in the past but their accounts and maps are sketchy t best. oly after ibn batuta and the like who were well travelled muslims did we have a standard on map making. a standard in map making w all follow to this day

universities found their universality after the muslims worked on them. sure there were places of learning in the past bt neve to the degree or never similar to the methods incorporated by muslim minds. the tutoring of the various subjects by degrees, elaorately developing a system of rewards and sholarships and even the architecture to suit the places of learning were embodied in the university of the muslims. ever wonder the ceremony ater graduation where people wear funny hats and robes....yes thats right it is a muslim tradition.

obviously it was the quranic influence which turned everyone it touched into glob trotting, god fearing, scholarly warrior people. such was the case of the arabs and every other people in the islamic world.

so the fact that you can sit there and brag about what is your and ours, couldnt have happened if the muslims hadnt contributed essential things in the critical moments of history.

>>

Of course we live in infinity. Who can dispute that? People who understood and were completely merged with their original true nature and universal consciousness made statements from a point of view of 100% clarity. I do not believe, based on what is written in the Koran and the Surah's and hadiths about Mohammed's life - that he was onbe of those persons. I am free to hold that belief. And you should not feel the need to get offended if I - or anyone else do not believe what you believe. You could learn to trust 'Allah' that everything is Ok and we are all where we need to be."

im hardly offended by your lack of faith. islam isnt a church that makes more money with more converts to its religion. i have nothing to gain from your faith. lol. only you do.

i only asked you, that if indeed you know that we are in infinity, then why do you have a problem believing thatTHE INFINITE, THE REALITY HIMSELF communicates with us, and in our case, through propehts and scriptures ... thats all. nothing personal. if HE IS INFINITE, then HE certainly also reserves for HIMSELF the power to be personal to HIS infinitesmally minute creations.

>>

Good, well, prove me wrong. I'm just going on results so far. Other co-religionists of yours agree with similar statements:

then you are getting the wrong information from your search for results. because you are looking for islam in the wrong places. islam is in the quran and sunnah. now if it is indeed not a tactic of yours to hide from the truith, then you will ultimately go to the sources to learn aboutthe deen.

if you go by hearsay, then im not interested in wasting time here on the internet exlaining something to someone who thinks that the media is the yardstick of trust.

>>

Russians have a proverb - '........know the breed, know the dog'. Some people and races and cultures are good at some things - others at other things."

men and dogs. different species of creatures. ones standard of measure isnt the same for the other,

i think you should be glad that the russians are wrong . then the western world would be recognized as liars nd lying and deceiving is the best thing that they do.

>>

well, if that is their self-image and that's the concept they want to go with - then good luck to them.But don't expect much improvement to come from inside the Muslim world."

self image is a hobby. its a holiday habit. knowing that one is slave to the ABSOLUTE is fact. because regardless of our opinions, we belong to HIM. whether we choose to or not. if we are the creative expressions of ALLAH who is the REALITY itself , then the logical thing that cn be surmised from this is that our task is to express HIS glory.

>>

No, again, no temper. You must understand if you met me , you'd find it's extremely hard to get me angry.You'd have to do something very bad to get that sort of reaction from me. I had not swerved away from the point - the point was that I said Muslims are fatalistic in general whilst non-Muslms are not.

what does your last statement actually try to say? muslims simply admit that no matter what, ALLAH know it best. and whatever HE stores for us comes to be. its a knowledge. but the meaning of this isnt that we cannot strive for things. like the prophet muhammad peace be upon him explained, no matter what is in store for you, you must keep trying to do as much good as possible.

and ALLAH HIMSELF sys in quran how HE does not change the condition of a peopleuntil they change what is in their hearts.

>>

Rome fought against Persia, Scythians fought against Persia, Alexander the Great fought against Afghans. each of those disagreements left their mark on the various cultures. The British as I pointed out left a lot of very good things in their wake - the legal and justice system, health system, educational system, tarsnport system and railways"

i was not talking bout persia or rome. you said we spoke in english too, altho the language is hardly deserving th blame of its speakers, i pointed out that we did not need to. we were doing fine in our own languages when europe was still learning how to take a shower. no pun intended.

and no the indians did NOT teach us how to use zero. they simply thought it up as did other cultures . the arabs developed the zero and fully defined its usage. i believe the arabic name for zero was the sifr. you may know it as the cipher.

>>

You are able to converse in the English language - which is pretty much the universal language - definitely for science and business. You can talk to Muslims in Malaya, Indonesia etc - in a common language which many in those countries would have as a second language. Why are you griping? What have the british - or other Europeans done to you persoanlly that upsets you? Nothing? My ancestors countries have been at war with the English too at various times. Do I hate the British? No."

lol i get the impression you rw tryingto console me. thats comforting. still, not necessary.

i dont hate the british. i cant, ALLAH forbids us to hate people. we just hate colonialism and its effects. it left many countries stripped to the bone and dwindling in misery.

>.>

You stated 'infidel' means 'one who veils the truth'. You are giving it your own definition. Your definition is incorrect. The ENGLISH word 'Infidel' comes from the Latin word for 'faith' - 'fides'. It just means 'unfaithful'. Muslims have used it in a derogatory fashion to deride and describe people who do not have faith in what Muslims believe (or think they believe) . I chose the pseudonym Grand Infidel as a point of irony. "

the arabic word for infidel is kafir. kafir is the veiler of truth. and kuffar, the noun, is veiling the truth. so when you say infidel, i understand kafir. and yes i susect it was irony. you wouldnt have given yourself the name if you knew the pirpose of the infidel.

>>

It is not unaccpetable at all What I said is - IF they had kept accurate records i.e. diagrams -not relying on the human eye they would have been able to dect that slight shift over 1000 years. The fact that they did not is neither here nor there - but if they had - they would have been able to detect the shift."

it is highly unlikely that a bunch of anceints banded up for 220 million years or so to observe the sky . the study of strs stretch only a few thousand years back. besides, detecting shifts would be highy ulikely by eyes not possessing the magnification ability by million degrees.

even if shifts were noticed, they wouldnt know what caused the shift. since the idea of the solar system wasnt at all developed back then. the earliest people that theorised the model of orbiting planets was the reeks in the 6th century bc, ut heir models had problems. they beleved that the earth was static and some amongthem believed that the sun was static. and that they were the center of the universe.

the solar system was fully discovered in the sixteenth century. and the previous models of the universe changed with its discovery.

>>

100 years ago. If the Koran claims the Sun has a spherical orbit thaen that should ring alarm bells for you. It does NOT have a sperical orbit."

a sphere is a round object so spheical means round in ither a rough or precise way. the sun revolves. revolutions imply spherical movement. elliptical movemnt is spherical or circular movement seen from within the cicle. but essentially, the quran is right, the sun does move in a circumference.

>> And surely, they don't know about the Sun's spherical path now. And again - another alarm bell should go off - the Earth is NOT egg shaped. It is spherical - but with a slight flattening at the poles.` It is more spherical than ovoid.

the earh is not perfectly spherical. it is flattened as you also say. that mens its bulged at te sides. very much like an egg. ALLAH uses simple terms to describe complex never before seen phenomena. so egg shaped would be the best way to talk about the actual shape of the earth in simple laymens terms.

the arabic words for egg shaped means like an egg or similar to an egg or having peculiarities of n egg. agin, arabic language, a very complex yet insightful language.

>>

You've said only the Sun moves in a spherical path - which it does not. The Moon - as seen from Earth - moves in a series of decreasing and increasing arcs - the apparent size of which depends on which latitude you live in. It traces a different path each day - so of course it would not be a constant - which was always rising in a certain spot and always setting in a certain spot.

nope. i said if the quran was simple observation, then according to observation the moon would be said to have moved in an 's' shape. or in arcs. but instead quran says both move in spheres. so clealry this wasnt the work of observation. but word of ALLAH.

>>But it is NOT a sphere. It is called the plane of the eliptic"

consult a book or somthing. an ellipse is a circle viewed from the inside the circle. it is the same thing. one thing is for certain, the sun mocves along a fixed circumference. so thats the focus of the ayah. spherical is saying in laymens terms that the sun moves round this or that. like the erth moves round the sun.

>>

But it's not 'clearly' at all. If I had asked you - as a Muslimn in say the year 1000AD - what that passage meant -you'd say it was talking about the Sun and Moon in their apparent dailt travels around the Earth."

again, your confusing yourself. even if that was the case the muslim would say the sun move round and the moon moves like a snake. in arcs or zig zags. so this is not observation.

>>

The Greeks DID know the earth was round. They deduced this from the shapes of the Sun and Moon - and the shape of the shadow the earth made on the Moon in a solar eclipse. Early mariners were well aware of the curvature of the earth because tghe shape of the horizon it is so apparent out at sea."

yeah? well then you must also be aware that the greeks believed that the sun was static. and that they were in thecenter of the univers. their model of universe was faulty at best. besdies, they had no conception of gravitational and electromagnetic forces that bound the earth and moon to the sun.

>>

The night doesn't have an axis, nor does the day . What it is saying is just that day and night roll into one another - time after time. Just like the days of your life."

and where do you find this in the ayah.

.....He created the heavens and the earth with true (wisdom)
He rolls the night over the days and rolls the day over the
night, He has subdued the sun and the moon. All running
for an appointed time. Is He not the Mighty, the Forgiver. (39/5)"

rolling something onto something else and vice versa. rolling is possible if it is round . and again you fail to notice a very obvious fact that the words yukawwar used denotes coiling or rolling speciically. if arabs wabted to say something trivial they have different words for it. your analogy of arbic and english figurative terms isnt accurate.

>>

Untrue. Ever heard of an eccentric cam? Do you know how exhaust valves work in an engine?"

it dosent have to necessarily abide by some gadgetry mechnism. it simply is talking about the roundness of the earth. and how it rolls from day to night. simple laymens terms.

---

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".